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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 9:18:04 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm looking forward to hearing similar demands being made of Israel - specifically that Likud and other Israeli political parties remove their claim over the West Bank ("Judea" and "Samaria") from their charters. Or that Israel formally and eternally renounces any claim to lands outside its internationally recognised (pre-1967) borders.

Israel's post 1967 borders are internationally recognised as well, I'm afraid. The practise of seizing land from foreign aggressors in the aftermath of a war has quite a few precedents historically, you'll find.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 11:14:11 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Being critical of Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism. I get bored with saying it over and over again, but you seem to be unable to understand it.

Here's a link to a site you will approve of in relation to the PLO charter: http://www.mfa.gov.il....htm

One of the numerous different views on the PLO charter is that the offending parts were removed, following a vote, as Oslo suggested.

There's another article on the subject here: http://www.economist.com/node/178258

That was what a lot of people had to say in 1998. Of course after the PLO leadership started denying that they had changed the charter in 1999 people stopped making that claim, except of course for pathetic losers who cannot admit the Palestinians are to blame for the failure of the peace process.


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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 12:29:29 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm looking forward to hearing similar demands being made of Israel - specifically that Likud and other Israeli political parties remove their claim over the West Bank ("Judea" and "Samaria") from their charters. Or that Israel formally and eternally renounces any claim to lands outside its internationally recognised (pre-1967) borders.

Israel's post 1967 borders are internationally recognised as well, I'm afraid. The practise of seizing land from foreign aggressors in the aftermath of a war has quite a few precedents historically, you'll find.

Recognised ....by whom? I'm unaware of any significant international recognition of the post-1967 borders.

This excerpt from UK paper The Guardian may help clarify matters:
"While still under foreign belligerent occupation, the state of Palestine possesses all the customary international law criteria for sovereign statehood. No portion of its territory is recognised by any other country (other than Israel) as any other country's sovereign territory and, indeed, Israel has only asserted sovereignty over a small portion of its territory – expanded East Jerusalem – leaving sovereignty over the rest both literally and legally uncontested."^

Even Israel refers to Gaza and the West Bank as the "Occupied Territories". Israel has tried to annexe East Jerusalem, a claim dismissed by the UN Security Council as "null and void" (UN Resolution 1710).


The only international attention Israel's brutal military occupation receives is repeated condemnation and quite rightly so. Israel's current aim can only be the annexation of the West Bank, which it clearly desires far more than it desires peace.

There will never be peace without Israel leaving the West Bank - unless it succeeds in its attempts to drive the indigenous Palestinian population out.

As this exchange of posts took place between us Moonhead, another 2 Palestinian civilians were killed by the IDF, to add to the thousands the IDF has already slaughtered ........ One died after inhaling tear gas at a protest against Israel's Wall of Shame, the other was shot as he allegedly approached an IDF checkpoint "armed" with a "glass bottle".*


* http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/02/israel-tear-gas-death-palestinian
^ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/29/us-israel-palestine-independence

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/2/2011 12:40:29 PM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 12:46:13 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The late Lyndon Johnson recognised it, for a start.

I suppose if you want to be completely pedantic, the border between Israel and Palestine is an armistice line, which was never a fixed boundary in the first place. That does rather queer the notion that any expansion of Israeli territories beyond the 1949 limits is an atrocity that shouldn't be allowed, though.


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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 1:13:07 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The late Lyndon Johnson recognised it, for a start.


Sorry the views of deceased individuals, no matter how distinguished or otherwise their lives have been, don't count.


quote:


I suppose if you want to be completely pedantic, the border between Israel and Palestine is an armistice line, which was never a fixed boundary in the first place. That does rather queer the notion that any expansion of Israeli territories beyond the 1949 limits is an atrocity that shouldn't be allowed, though.



Actually it's you who is being pedantic.

Israel's current borders are recognised by 0 (zero) countries.

The State of Palestine, ie. Gaza and the West Bank within the 1967 borders, is recognised by 106 countries.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 2:46:02 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I suppose if you want to be completely pedantic, the border between Israel and Palestine is an armistice line, which was never a fixed boundary in the first place. That does rather queer the notion that any expansion of Israeli territories beyond the 1949 limits is an atrocity that shouldn't be allowed, though.



How so? Surely driving people from their homes with threats and actual violence in order to steal their land is an atrocity under any circumstances?

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 2:48:07 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That was what a lot of people had to say in 1998. Of course after the PLO leadership started denying that they had changed the charter in 1999 people stopped making that claim, except of course for pathetic losers who cannot admit the Palestinians are to blame for the failure of the peace process.


And there you go with the civilised discussion and neutral fair-mindedness again.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 2:55:27 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Even Israel refers to Gaza and the West Bank as the "Occupied Territories". Israel has tried to annexe East Jerusalem, a claim dismissed by the UN Security Council as "null and void" (UN Resolution 1710).

Not true.

UN Security Council resolution 1710 is about Ethopia and Eritrea.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1710

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 2:58:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That was what a lot of people had to say in 1998. Of course after the PLO leadership started denying that they had changed the charter in 1999 people stopped making that claim, except of course for pathetic losers who cannot admit the Palestinians are to blame for the failure of the peace process.


And there you go with the civilised discussion and neutral fair-mindedness again.


I actually read things, like the PNC which says how it is to be amended. I don't buy into ridiculous propoganda. I find it pathetic when people who claim knowledge on a subject, any subject, turn out to be believers of propoganda and know nothing of the real situation.

If you feel insulted by my statement of plain facts then I think you need to take a good hard look at your beliefs instead of whining that I am being mean.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 3:04:23 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
If you feel insulted by my statement of plain facts then I think you need to take a good hard look at your beliefs instead of whining that I am being mean.


And there you go with the being wrong about what I think, and what I am saying, again. That never gets old for you, does it?

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 4:07:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
If you feel insulted by my statement of plain facts then I think you need to take a good hard look at your beliefs instead of whining that I am being mean.


And there you go with the being wrong about what I think, and what I am saying, again. That never gets old for you, does it?


Then precisely what were you whining about above?

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 4:27:14 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Even Israel refers to Gaza and the West Bank as the "Occupied Territories". Israel has tried to annexe East Jerusalem, a claim dismissed by the UN Security Council as "null and void" (UN Resolution 1710).

Not true.

UN Security Council resolution 1710 is about Ethopia and Eritrea.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1710



That should be UN resolution 478, adopted August 20, 1980. Apologies for the minor inaccuracy.

This resolution was passed 14-0 with one abstention (guess who?) in direct response to Israel's Jerusalem law.

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