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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 1:06:26 PM   
mbes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Well, yes, IF they are abiding by their agreement. I don't ALL the time.

If HE didn't remind me of that *place* now and then, as required, then I'd just be getting on with things in my own way.

agirl


This.
I've done things my own way for a long time, I do need reminders from time to time that he has other ideas.

< Message edited by mbes -- 12/12/2010 1:07:20 PM >

(in reply to agirl)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 1:13:47 PM   
Nineveh


Posts: 1299
Joined: 2/5/2008
Status: offline 		I do need to be reminded of my place.  Apparently there are Dominants out there who can be dominant all the time, who never falter or feel like they are not in control. that's not me. Having a girl come to me and kneel, or ask my permission to orgasm when the sex has not been D/s up until then, or deferring to me on a decision, or showing me that I am in charge in any of a number of other ways reminds me of my place. 

In the same way perhaps there are submissives out there who are submissive all the time.  If so she's not the submissive for me, I like a woman who can be strong when needed and who submits only to me, not to everyone.  I want to be able to put her in her place (kneeling at my feet, in a metaphorical sense) and know that she wont stay in that place forever, that she'll be back to being in charge at work, or giving some rude person a good talking to, or otherwise being in charge when she needs to be.

(in reply to catize)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 1:22:11 PM   
mbes


Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline 		Oh yes, I do from time to time remind him of his place as well. We've been together a long time, and for most of that time, we interacted one way. It wasn't working out that well, or at least we figured out that something else would work better. But old habits die hard. So I've learned that it's ok to occasionally say, "so, why are you taking my shit?", although not in quite those words.
You started out asking why sub/slaves need reminding, but later asked about those who call themselves submissive when they don't submit--- I don't call myself that because overall, I am not particularly so. It doesn't keep me from belonging to him. Perhaps it is different for those who are submissive personality types, from those who submit for other reasons?
I'm not sure I made sense there, but I hope I did!

(in reply to Nineveh)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 1:37:53 PM   
subinlife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

While I am always Master's slave and I know my place as his property, there are times when everyday life can interfere and I can have a tendency at very rare times to take it out on him by trying to take the reigns back or not speaking to him in a respectful tone because I'm angry or upset and not at him in any way...he just  happens to be in the line of fire and usually the first target available.

At those times he just has to give me a nudge to say "hey do you remember who you're talking to???".







This happened a few days ago.
After he let me have my say, he just calmly asked if I wanted to rephrase any of that.

I was just thinking, oh chit,




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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 1:41:56 PM   
catize


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quote:

Oh yes, I do from time to time remind him of his place as well.

quote:

You started out asking why sub/slaves need reminding, but later asked about those who call themselves submissive when they don't submit--- I don't call myself that because overall, I am not particularly so. It doesn't keep me from belonging to him. Perhaps it is different for those who are submissive personality types, from those who submit for other reasons?


Usually there are those who would be screaming the 'topping from the bottom' nonsense when this occurred. I think we all have our reasons that may not follow the acceptable definitions of submission, but I don't think we need to fit in any pigeon hole as long as we are happy.

< Message edited by catize -- 12/12/2010 1:44:21 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 1:46:25 PM   
catize


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quote:

I do need to be reminded of my place. Apparently there are Dominants out there who can be dominant all the time, who never falter or feel like they are not in control. that's not me. Having a girl come to me and kneel, or ask my permission to orgasm when the sex has not been D/s up until then, or deferring to me on a decision, or showing me that I am in charge in any of a number of other ways reminds me of my place.



Thanks for this!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Nineveh)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 3:17:21 PM   
TreasureKY


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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

I'm just guessing here because I don't have a single central identity within my intimate relationship with Firm. I'm assuming that others have several identities, as well, and it may be that a person wishing to put his or her partner "in their place" is simply wanting to remind and reinforce that identity for which they have a preference.



Getting back to you because I have been pondering what you said. My question would be, do you have ~a~ central identity or do they all create the whole?


For me, they all create the whole.  I'm not sure I could separate out one from the others completely... they are too intertwined.  I can concentrate on one for a time and allow the others to take less prominence, but I think if I had to pick one and maintain that all the time I would feel that I was missing part of myself.

(in reply to catize)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 3:37:55 PM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		What Treasure said. Honestly, my place is wherever he says it is. Which can be kneeling or cuddled up beside him or in the kitchen. It would be pretty stupid of him to be doing things that make it impossible for me to accomplish anything. If the only thing he wanted was for me to remember all the time that I'm inferior to him, I would conclude that he is way too insecure for me.

Artificially doing things to make me realize this I am something vastly inferior than him doing things that have me amazed yet again at his competence and being put into a submissive headspace organically. My mother used to say that you don't make yourself bigger by making someone else smaller and I'm reminded of this by the so-called dominants who are so incompetent that they cannot shine by lieu of their own exertions and instead need to put others down. That's more abuse than dominance in my view.


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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 4:08:23 PM   
catize


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quote:

What Treasure said. Honestly, my place is wherever he says it is. Which can be kneeling or cuddled up beside him or in the kitchen. It would be pretty stupid of him to be doing things that make it impossible for me to accomplish anything. If the only thing he wanted was for me to remember all the time that I'm inferior to him, I would conclude that he is way too insecure for me.


~Chuckles~ Like you, I prefer a relationship that plays to each others strengths rather than one where I am made to feel inferior.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 5:40:41 PM   
leadership527


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Status: offline 		I don't really get this either Catize. The way I think about it is that there are two separate questions:

What is Carol's "place" according to her?
What is Carol's "place" according to me?

When I think of the phrase "her place" that only makes sense to me to think of it as "Her place according to her" -- the place that she defaults to. And by that line of thinking, if I need to "put" there or "keep" her there, then it isn't really her place, is it? It must be MY place that I want her to be in. I structured our marriage in such a way as the role she occupies in it actually is HER place. So there's no putting or keeping required. If I found myself needing to do this, the obvious conclusion is that I'm trying to do something which is fundamentally misaligned with her Carol-ness which is a BADTHING(tm) so I change what I'm doing.

In real life, Carol and I don't deal in "places". We deal in dominance and submission. She's sub. I'm dom. That IS our default mode and it takes some sort of aberration for that to not be true. In those circumstances, I'm better served to deal with the aberration than with her. It's going to be some sort of outside stress which is moving her away from her default "place". All I need to do is remove the stressor and the problem is solved.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to catize)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 6:22:10 PM   
catize


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quote:

When I think of the phrase "her place" that only makes sense to me to think of it as "Her place according to her" -- the place that she defaults to. And by that line of thinking, if I need to "put" there or "keep" her there, then it isn't really her place, is it?


Perfectly stated, Jeff, thanks. And I like that you can appreciate how stress can affect one's state. I had brain surgery in August, and when DG drove me home I was horrible. I bitched and ~gasp~ raised my voice to him. He did not respond in any way, other than to try to soothe me. Nothing like a little brain surgery to make me forget my 'place'!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 6:26:15 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Based on his determination, i existed in his life as he chose, which means i had my place in his life.  Being my Master, he created the environment and atmosphere within which i existed to meet his standards and expectations.   So yes, i had a place in his life, when he felt i needed to be reminded of what he determined a my place in his life as either i was attempting to redefine same or was falling outside the environment and atmosphere he created to maintain me on the path of reaching and maintaining his expectations and standards, he reminded me of that place he created. 

It seems many people want to make it some sinister concept and its not, for many slaves, they exist in a place in the Man's life that HE defines and choose for her.  Its the nature of  many M/s dynamics, and many times there are rituals or certain aspects that create a mindset within which she exists in his life that is considered her place.  For many M/s relationships she is in a subordinate position or place if you wish. 

All in all, for me there were many times he reminded me of my place in his life and i never got the feeling he was doing it for himself but more for me because when i was in my "place" in his life he determined and defined and worked to maintain me on the path of achieving said place, i was the happiest and most content.  When i fell outside that place, i tended to be edgy and unsettled. 

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 9:00:01 PM   
mbes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Usually there are those who would be screaming the 'topping from the bottom' nonsense when this occurred.

Oh, don't I know it. I've even had to shut up my own internal voice that screams that at times!
barelynangel, I know what you mean. When I am in the place we both agree is right, we're both at peace. When I diverge from it, it causes drama. So reminders are helpful.

(in reply to catize)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/12/2010 9:33:49 PM   
catize


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quote:

All in all, for me there were many times he reminded me of my place in his life and i never got the feeling he was doing it for himself but more for me because when i was in my "place" in his life he determined and defined and worked to maintain me on the path of achieving said place, i was the happiest and most content. When i fell outside that place, i tended to be edgy and unsettled.


Angel, your experience is completely opposite of what Leadership talked about; you accepted the way the Man (as you refer to him) defined what was acceptable. Your post underlines the different opinions expressed by the responses to this thread. It comes down to, in my opinion, whether we work with who we are or try to live up to another's ideal. I have appreciated everyones responses which have expressed their views in a non-adversarial way.
The idea of keeping someone in their place is not one I see as necessary ~~for me~~ but yours and a few others thoughts are compelling in their clarity. Not that it changed my mind, rather it made me see why some folks do want or need it.

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 1:35:45 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
However, as I do not consider submission as 'lower' (understanding that you don't think that either) I believe that is my objection to the idea tht we need reminders.


Yes! That's essentially my objection to the expression too.

And you're absolutely right, I don't think that submission is "lower".

There are so many ways to remind people of their role (avoiding the word "place"), a glance, a raised eyebrow... in most functional relationships there's a continual natural flow of cues.

If I ever found myself thinking "I need to put her in her place..." I think I'd want to have a good chat with her..

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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 2:41:40 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

It comes down to, in my opinion, whether we work with who we are or try to live up to another's ideal. I have appreciated everyones responses which have expressed their views in a non-adversarial way.



I don't view myself as living up to M's ideal. I'm living in a way that I chose, because it agrees with me, overall, not because he defined it.

agirl



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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 4:26:18 AM   
lally2


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Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		hi

when i first read the OP i kinda went 'ew' but after reading the other posters im reminded that ive often had little nudges and that definitive 'look' that at the time i was grateful for and the reminder was always reassuring to me.

but for me, personally, to be reminded as an ongoing thing by not allowing a person to wear shoes or some such, in order to constantly keep them there when really theyre submission should be a fairly organic and purposeful thing in its own right,  it feels too much like an over emphasis of something that should naturally be occuring anyway.

as a mindset thing or perhaps as a Ds thing to say 'right we're in mode now' i can see how it would work - for myself just having them close to me is usually enough of a reminder of who i am to them.  but the phrase 'being kept in my place' does feel a bit icky to me - maybe because i dont need to be 'kept in my place' im almost invariably there anyway and that overt emphasis seems a bit too much like playing the role rather than getting on with life.  but then again, i can see how pottering around barefoot has that element of emphasis without being too overt.



_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 4:30:20 AM   
catize


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quote:

There are so many ways to remind people of their role (avoiding the word "place"), a glance, a raised eyebrow... in most functional relationships there's a continual natural flow of cues.


Functional being the key word here!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to crazyml)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 4:34:17 AM   
catize


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quote:

I don't view myself as living up to M's ideal. I'm living in a way that I chose, because it agrees with me, overall, not because he defined it.
agirl


So could you say that you work with who you are?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to agirl)
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 4:34:25 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I have no clue what Leadership is saying so whether or not it is opposite or not wasn't my concern. So i am not sure why you are telling me what he is saying is opposite.

I also don't get what you think it comes down too -- "whether we work with who we are or try to live up to another's ideal. "

Why do you think they can't be one in the same?  They were for me.  I existed within a concept he determined for me because HE knew me, that was what he did -- he knew me and within his mastery of me he determined how i would exist in his life.

It amazes me many times why people always see the concept as either or.   Do you really think men who determine how a woman exists in their lives and are able to create the atmosphere and environment for them to reach and maintain that place do so without knowing those women and create an ideal that doesn't work with who those women are?

I can tell you this much, if he didn't know who i was, if he didn't have that intimate and indepth knowledge of me but more so know how to utilize the knowledge, he would have never been able to create the atmosphere and environment for me to reach and maintain that place. 

Its not, for men who know how to accomplish what they determine of a woman, an either or situation.  That's what i think may be hindering you from understanding some of it.   You seem to think that the ideal he determines isn't who "we" are.   For some, men who don't know how to achieve what they determine for the women, it will be struggle and strife and trying to fit a square into a round whole, but for those who know how to do it, its seemless and many times not a struggle or a big tado, it just is.

Part of why i work so well with men who are able to set the environment and atmosphere for me to achieve their determinations is because i don't do well with execution.  So his keeping me in that place is something that keeps me sane lol otherwise i am all over the place and usually detrimental to obtaining determinations based on my own execution.  Its why i work well within a M/s relationship, i don't need or want to determine how i exist in his life, but neither do i want to be a square trying to be fit into a round whole -- i do that all by myself.  What many don't seem to acknowledge is Men who know how to do what i speak of, to me, are men who utilize all knowledge at their disposal of the woman and determine how she will exist in his life.  He isn't immaturely or arrogantly trying to fit a square into a whole because that's (stamping his foot) is what he wants.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/13/2010 4:42:42 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to agirl)
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