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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 4:42:41 AM   
catize


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quote:

but for me, personally, to be reminded as an ongoing thing by not allowing a person to wear shoes or some such, in order to constantly keep them there when really theyre submission should be a fairly organic and purposeful thing in its own right, it feels too much like an over emphasis of something that should naturally be occuring anyway.



Thanks. Lally, for your response, it sums up what I think fairly well, particularly the paragraph I quoted and the part I bolded.
Now I need to get to work and won't be responding for a day or two, thanks everyone for the responses!

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 4:55:58 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

I don't view myself as living up to M's ideal. I'm living in a way that I chose, because it agrees with me, overall, not because he defined it.
agirl


So could you say that you work with who you are?


We all work with who we are.....that's all we've got. I didn't get your either/or thing, or how you came to that conclusion from the thread, as I haven't read anything here that intimated that anyone participating in the thread was *living up to someone else's ideal*.

The only differences that I can see is that some people are *submission* driven and some people are *owned* driven.

agirl



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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 5:07:32 AM   
MaxsGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I also don't get what you think it comes down too -- "whether we work with who we are or try to live up to another's ideal. "

Why do you think they can't be one in the same?  They were for me.  I existed within a concept he determined for me because HE knew me, that was what he did -- he knew me and within his mastery of me he determined how i would exist in his life.



You took the words right out of my keyboard.  This is exactly how it is for Alpha and me.  He knows me very well, a little better each day, and determines my place in his life and his home based on that knowledge.  While he might challenge me to stretch my boundaries at times, my basic role is determined who I am and what I need and can provide.  From there it is evolving and will continue to evolve, growing under his care and support.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 5:46:39 AM   
mbes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
However, as I do not consider submission as 'lower' (understanding that you don't think that either) I believe that is my objection to the idea tht we need reminders.


Yes! That's essentially my objection to the expression too.

And you're absolutely right, I don't think that submission is "lower".

There are so many ways to remind people of their role (avoiding the word "place"), a glance, a raised eyebrow... in most functional relationships there's a continual natural flow of cues.

If I ever found myself thinking "I need to put her in her place..." I think I'd want to have a good chat with her..

Yeah, I've gotten hung up on that as well. I don't consider myself lower, or a lesser person than him. He doesn't either. We're just different, and are satisfied with different things.
I also think that there's a certain amount of disconnect here. What I mean by "putting in place" is the same as what some of you who say you don't believe in do yourselves--- the look, the raised eyebrow, that kind of thing. It's not some huge deal, just a moment in time when one reminds the other that our way of interacting isn't what we've agreed upon.
As for the barefoot thing, I don't see that as something that would be particularly effective for us. It would eventually just become a habit and wouldn't remind me of a thing. Of course, I go barefoot all the time when the weather is warm, not because I'm submissive, but because my feet are tough.


< Message edited by mbes -- 12/13/2010 5:47:41 AM >

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:03:44 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
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Status: offline 		I oil my blades.I change the filters in my heating and A/C. I keep my car tuned up. I do regular routine maintenance  on my house. I have programs on my computer for cleaning/running more efficiently.
Shrugs.
This is life.
Things begin with all stations perfectly in line, running smooth, then over times things drift, become uncalibrated, errors and gaps start to occur.
Preventative maintenance minimizes this.
Slaves are subject to this too.

Grins.
I used to shoot pool in beer leagues. One of the guys I played with was a professional pool shark, played in tourneys around the world.
He always used to tell me, "Practice good habits regularly, that way bad habits don't slip into your game, become your game."

Think of it like breaking apart, cleaning and oiling a gun.
That sucka might work perfect right now, but if I want it to remain in 100% tiptop shape, then I need to take the time and effort to ensure that it does. Otherwise, the damn thing may just lock up on me at a critical juncture, and that's just never cool.


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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:05:39 AM   
Kana


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Status: offline 		One more comment-By doing this, practicing with her, keeping everything running smooth, spot checking occasionally, I am practicing too, which makes me a better Dom.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:10:08 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Okay Kana, I get that. But then by the same standards, you need to be taken apart and put back together also. Who does that for you?

And I think it would help if we all recognized that the op of the linked thread is a fetishist who focuses on torturing women's feet. That he hasn't ever had a slave, that all his preconceived ideas come from porn filtered by his focus on bastinado and other implements used on the feet. That if he had ever had any experience, he would realize that making a woman walk barefoot constantly results in one who would not even feel it if he 'whiped her feet' (spelled like in his previous name).


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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:17:17 AM   
barelynangel


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Status: offline 		DesFIP, why do you always think that just because a concept is spoken about that OTHER THINGS don't happen in the relationship?  Most MEN who are masters know and enjoy self-mastery, which means they as the Master take care of themselves  so many times they do it themselves.   That to me is why they are the Masters, they tend to be capable of mastering themselves, controling themselves and existing in an independent concept. 

It's NOT an equal opportunity concept you always want to make it.  Many people exist very happily in an unequal concept of their relationship where what is good for the goose concept doesn't exist BECAUSE of the dynamic.

This doens't make the Master bad or neglectful or wrong --- in many cases it simply makes him the Master.

Also, i don't think the other thread is needed for this thread so it really to me makes no difference what the OP in the other thread is going off of, this thread to me seems to be a question about place, not about the barefeet concept alone.  I haven't even read the other thread and seemed to get the OP without an issue.  I will say many M/s and D/s relationships DO have rituals and things that occur to create the mindset of the dynamic.  There are many many threads that show this where people ask what kind of rituals peope do when they come home from work etc.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/13/2010 6:20:05 AM >

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:21:48 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Okay Kana, I get that. But then by the same standards, you need to be taken apart and put back together also. Who does that for you?



I actually have someone in my life who does that to me on a regular basis. It's a spiritual thing, but yeah, my ego gets reduced pretty quick.

Edited to add-Plus, occasionally, just every once in a while, she'll quote me back to me re something I did and ya know what? Your own crow tastes pretty fricking bad. Not to mention that when she does it, she usually has dancing eyes and this ridiculous shit-eating grin that says the cat just ate the canary and it's damn skippy yummy.
It's a rare moments of roll reversal.


< Message edited by Kana -- 12/13/2010 6:32:32 AM >

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:54:39 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

What exactly is a sub/slave's 'place' and why do they need reminders?


As has been said by others here, not all slaves are submissive driven.  While they function better and are happier in am M/s relationship, submission does not come naturally to them.  And so they need reminders of who's in charge.  Those reminders actually create a feeling of security for them within the relationships.  And if they have a master who is willing to do this, then go them, yes?

I've talked with a slave who is actually very stubborn and hard headed within her relationship.  It is within her nature to argue back, to state what she wants, to tell him when she thinks he's wrong, etc...And he fosters an environment in which she is free to express herself, and actually finds her "tantrums" (for lack of a better word) to be highly amusing.  Their level of communication is better than a lot of people I know, and they interact wonderfully together.  He puts her in her place when he feels she needs it - not as a means of punishing or disciplining her, and not because he is frustrated with her behavior, but because coming back to center is where she is the most peaceful.  Because she is not submissive in nature yet chose to be owned, being led back to where she needs to be is something she appreciates and he is happy to do.

In my past relationship, I was often "put in my place" in that he felt a slave's place was much lower than the master's place.  Any time my personality rose to the level of being on par with him, he'd bat me back down in the most demeaning ways.  For a long time, it made me feel secure.  I needed to know he was more powerful than me, and I needed to feel that from him.  So that's what it meant for me then.  It is not a dynamic I would function well in anymore.

With my Daddy now, it was an interesting challenge for me at first, to submit to a man who does not use such tactics.  My submission to him would have to come from me and would not be prodded from me by putting me in any sort of place.  My place is with him, submitting to him, and that is where I am happy, so that is where I stay. In the beginning I've had a few "nudges" of "Remember who you serve" but this relationship is unique to me in that we're both striving for harmony within it, and don't pit ourselves against the other - in arguments or concepts or desires. Because of that, I don't "go rogue" on him (as he put it) and remain within the boundaries of what works for us.  If that becomes a struggle to me, I talk to him about it and we go from there.

Btw, I'm barefoot at home all the time - no shoes on the carpet, lol.

quote:


As for that, do the dominants/masters need to be reminded of their “place”? Why or why not?


I don't know if it's a reminder of place so much, but he does keep himself in check, by self analysis, by talking to me and by observing the effects of his actions on himself, me, and the relationship, overall.  When something he's doing isn't working and has a negative effect, he figures out what's going on and makes necessary changes.  I think he's always  keeping himself in check. 


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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 8:09:59 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

While I am always Master's slave and I know my place as his property, there are times when everyday life can interfere and I can have a tendency at very rare times to take it out on him by trying to take the reigns back or not speaking to him in a respectful tone because I'm angry or upset and not at him in any way...he just  happens to be in the line of fire and usually the first target available.
This.  And...getting ready for the flak...I seriously doubt that there is a submissive who cannot relate to having done so.  My question is:  How many rationalize it or excuse it away?
To be fair, I think that there are dominants who have done the same thing in a different way.  I admit to bias though and will speculate that there may not be as many because...as stated in an earlier thread...we know the percentages. (color me cynical for daring to state that)

At those times he just has to give me a nudge to say "hey do you remember who you're talking to?????
Sadly...I wonder how many times this has resulted in "you just don't understand.  I am done..." rather than a "you're right.  I am sorry, Sir/Ma'am".  Again, color me cynical...or perhaps just realistic.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 2:57:00 PM   
jujubeeMB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
What is Carol's "place" according to her?
What is Carol's "place" according to me?

When I think of the phrase "her place" that only makes sense to me to think of it as "Her place according to her" -- the place that she defaults to. And by that line of thinking, if I need to "put" there or "keep" her there, then it isn't really her place, is it? It must be MY place that I want her to be in. I structured our marriage in such a way as the role she occupies in it actually is HER place. So there's no putting or keeping required. If I found myself needing to do this, the obvious conclusion is that I'm trying to do something which is fundamentally misaligned with her Carol-ness which is a BADTHING(tm) so I change what I'm doing.


Jeff, you've mentioned before that whatever you want Carol to be, she will be. Do you find that if you're having to "put" or "keep" her in a certain place you should change what you're doing, or just change the rate at which you're doing it? Also, do you think if a sub (not Carol, just in general a sub) is really struggling with certain aspects of submission (like being required to accept not getting certain things that they need sometimes) that's still something that the Dom needs to change, or just something that he needs to work out in such a way that it isn't hard for his sub?

Sorry to single you out, but I'm just curious about your take on this.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 6:29:56 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
That to me is why they are the Masters, they tend to be capable of mastering themselves, controling themselves and existing in an independent concept. 


Because as Kana said, a system that is in order needs regular maintenance and overseeing to keep it working right. You can't take out your own appendix. You cannot psychoanalyze yourself, that's why psychologists have relationships with other psychologists to make sure they are not getting personally involved in a case and are seeing it clearly.

In physics, a particle cannot observe itself. Which is why I asked Kana how he gets the maintenance he needs since he is not an impartial observer who can see where lubrication is needed.

And why must you always attack submissives who ask questions of dominants. This "I'm more submissive than you' act is getting old. I don't care about you. I don't care how many times you crawl across hot coals to bring him his coffee. I am not in competition with you. The Man wouldn't want you.


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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 7:03:14 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Why do i  question YOU, because you always seem to imply that the MEN are bad, the MEN aren't fair etc etc etc.  You constantly bring things to extremes with regard to M/s to somehow make it seem negative.  Umm DesFIP, i am not submissive and never will be submissive lol.  So believe me, you can be more submissive than i ever will be and i will applaud your effort with gusto.  If your not saying Men are abusive, you say men are neglectful or unfair.  If your not saying masters and men are scum, you are bringing extremes into it most conversations that have to do with M/s. Your constant negative assumptions and implications and extremes about M/s is getting old.   

What does getting appendix out and psychologists have to do with anything.  Your comments make no sense, but in your insinuation that men don't play fair.   Self-mastery means he is capable of taking care of himself, which means he is capable of seeking help for himself and/or taking care of his needs -- whether its deciding to go to a doctor, talking things over with yeah even his slave, making decisions for himself for his benefits and needs.  Your extreme here is that he "criticizes his slave" (and i fully believe THAT is how YOU see it) when he "puts her in her place" and does what Kana suggested and in your negative mindset you feel if its good enough for the slave to have her life negatively critcized and he decides how she should be, HE also should be subject to the same concept.

Bursts out laughing,  see what i mean --
quote:

I don't care how many times you crawl across hot coals to bring him his coffee.
  Seriously?   Your assumptions and presumptions are beyond silly and border on stupidity in the extremes you always take it too.  And this isn't the first or only time you take things to extreme when it comes to other people's relationships and M/s. 

And as far as your Man not wanting me, okay and?   lol oh wait, am i supposed to say oh yes he would?   Seriously?  Grins, you sure you aren't competing?

angel. 

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/13/2010 7:05:20 PM >

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 7:18:25 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		NuevaVida:

quote:

As has been said by others here, not all slaves are submissive driven.  While they function better and are happier in am M/s relationship, submission does not come naturally to them. 


Lordy from your keyboard to gods ears.  Its funny because most slaves i know are very dominant in personality, they are not submissive naturally at all.  And many people have a hard time understanding this concept because i think with many people they think slave means ultra submissive in nature.  

While some slaves are ultra submissives, i really do believe most M/s concepts deal within the concept of stronger will, rather than having to do with how naturally submissive a woman is -- this concept is how a dominant personality woman can become and thrive in being a slave to a Man.  This is why i also believe based on the slaves i know personally including myself, that M/s has a lot more dominant personality women than people realize.

angel  



_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/13/2010 9:25:43 PM   
MaxsGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

While some slaves are ultra submissives, i really do believe most M/s concepts deal within the concept of stronger will, rather than having to do with how naturally submissive a woman is -- this concept is how a dominant personality woman can become and thrive in being a slave to a Man.  This is why i also believe based on the slaves i know personally including myself, that M/s has a lot more dominant personality women than people realize.



Once again you pluck the thoughts right from my head.  I'm a slave, but am not a submissive.  Far from it, in fact.  I'm very dominant and controlling by nature, but I submit to Alpha (the first time I have ever submitted to anyone) because he has the stronger will.  It's more about him being dominant over me than me being submissive to him.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/14/2010 11:18:20 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
Jeff, you've mentioned before that whatever you want Carol to be, she will be. Do you find that if you're having to "put" or "keep" her in a certain place you should change what you're doing, or just change the rate at which you're doing it? Also, do you think if a sub (not Carol, just in general a sub) is really struggling with certain aspects of submission (like being required to accept not getting certain things that they need sometimes) that's still something that the Dom needs to change, or just something that he needs to work out in such a way that it isn't hard for his sub?

Well, the phrase "whatever I want" is a hyperbole.. or at least imprecise. For instance, if I wanted her to be a mathematician, I think I'd be SOL. All of us have to work with the raw material we're given. That pretty much highlights the need for choosing wisely on both sides. There are limits I'm sure to what Carol is able to be for me. We just haven't run into them yet.

To your question, I don't think in terms of "easy". In fact, I think in terms of "excellence" which kind of implies a constant struggle to improve. I think in terms of net gain to our marriage counting both the annoyance and happiness on both sides that a direction is likely to produce. Her needs and desires and mine are interwoven too tightly (which was another specific goal of mine) for any other viewpoint to make sense. Overall, it's not a very M/s-ey or even BDSM-ey mindset which is why I'm dropping the master & slave labels.

Now, as to what some other theoretical dom and sub ought to do -- I have no idea. I'd recommend that they both be really clear on their priorities -- you know -- AFTER you have a master or a slave, then what? What did you want to accomplish with that? In my case, it's a happy marriage. Is this denial of something the sub "needs" likely to achieve that objective or not? I'm a big believer in reality and results.


_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/14/2010 3:22:36 PM   
Twoshoes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Well, the phrase "whatever I want" is a hyperbole.. or at least imprecise. For instance, if I wanted her to be a mathematician, I think I'd be SOL. All of us have to work with the raw material we're given. That pretty much highlights the need for choosing wisely on both sides. There are limits I'm sure to what Carol is able to be for me. We just haven't run into them yet.

To your question, I don't think in terms of "easy". In fact, I think in terms of "excellence" which kind of implies a constant struggle to improve. I think in terms of net gain to our marriage counting both the annoyance and happiness on both sides that a direction is likely to produce. Her needs and desires and mine are interwoven too tightly (which was another specific goal of mine) for any other viewpoint to make sense. Overall, it's not a very M/s-ey or even BDSM-ey mindset which is why I'm dropping the master & slave labels.



I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but Jeff, that's pretty awesome. I also tend to exaggerate quite a whole lot for dramatic impact.

I seem to be similar to you; I tend to want to figure out what motivates someone and be as supportive and encouraging about it as I can. Maybe it's our vanilla-like mindsets showing. In a way, I don't particularly care whether this involves artwork, painting or something as strangely wondrous as steam punk, I'll direct my thoughts at figuring out ways to help improve what's already there (and make it more "excellent").

I've been "informed" that I have a "feminine perspective" to relationships, though, because I'm supportive more often than directive and concerned with people's emotions over their actions, plus I tend to want to soothe conflicts and can be fairly kind when warranted. Plus, my aggression tends to gets expressed mentally and often subtly. (This tends to confuse some people who equate the vaguest hint of "feminine" with "submissive".)

BDSM-y "me" is a predacious, manipulative jerk though. We don't like him exceptionally much. To me, "place" signifies some sort of psychological state (either during play or on an ongoing basis). I don't have the time or patience for most of the dynamics discussed here, although I certainly understand where you guys are coming from. I suppose I'm too selfish to consider wasting my energy on keeping someone in check on an ongoing basis.

Even in a perfectly vanilla sense, I get to remind people "Who do you think you're talking to?" .

Either:
A) My capacity for understanding is being underestimated. Since I spend most of my waking hours analyzing abstract things and people, by now I'm fairly good at using my intuition. When someone I know tries to tell me I don't "get it", they quickly get reminded I've figured out their mood the second they walked through the door, their state of mind halfway through their first word and their problem halfway through their second sentence. At other times, people try to convince me I don't know what I'm doing, when I've been completely aware of exactly what I'm doing and what's going on around me for as long as I remember being alive. (Lots of hyperbole in this paragraph. )

B) Even more hilarious is when someone tries being directive rather than helpful when they have no valid reason (such as actually being my boss), which results in a "Wait, when did I accept the obligation to live my life by your priorities?" or "I think you got the wrong number." In all truth, I've only had one boss and she seems to politely ask me what I want to do and when I can have it done. <3

All that said, I sometimes get proven wrong as well and it's the reason I aspire to be more humble in the future. I also appreciate people who pay attention. One thing I've learned so far is that I've made the biggest mistakes in my life when I've been the surest of myself, ignoring all and any external input.

Basically, not being rigid promotes learning; being rigid makes you a tool.

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/15/2010 11:53:45 AM   
HisEvelyn


Posts: 252
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Status: offline 		For Master and I, he never 'put me' in my place. It was more like he showed me what my place could be and I skipped there happily, humming a jaunty tune. Haven't had the slightest desire to leave my place, either. Occasionally, I get a little stressed and slip out of place a smidge, and he reminds me of where we both prefer me to be with a look or a single word. I cannot even imagine having to be 'put in my place', because if I didn't want to be there, what's the point of the relationship being this way in the first place? But then again, I AM a very naturally submissive woman (though to everyone except Master, that submissiveness just translates to being nice as long as I'm not threatened), so I do not personally understand the mindset of those happy subs/slaves who are not naturally submissive. To each their own, though, as long as we're all happy in the end!

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RE: "Place"...what and why? - 12/16/2010 2:49:25 PM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisEvelyn

Occasionally, I get a little stressed and slip out of place a smidge, and he reminds me of where we both prefer me to be with a look or a single word. I cannot even imagine having to be 'put in my place',



Well, you've just described a situation where you do *slip out of place* and get reminded of it. Not sure what difference you're drawing here.

agirl

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