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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 3:25:26 AM

anniezz338

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This is absolutely one of My favorite pieces on the subject.

Eight-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon wrote a letter to the editor of New York's Sun, and the quick response was printed as an unsigned editorial Sept. 21, 1897. The work of veteran newsman Francis Pharcellus Church has since become history's most reprinted newspaper editorial, appearing in part or whole in dozens of languages in books, movies, and other editorials, and on posters and stamps.

"DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.

"Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.

"Papa says, 'If you see it in THE SUN it's so.'

"Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?

"VIRGINIA O'HANLON.

"115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET."

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

EXACTLY :)

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 3:29:17 AM

Termyn8or

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My family, and some others SPECIFICALLY avoid giving gifts on holidays, and that includes birthdays as well. But on June eighth or whatever, if I see something that is really something I know someone will like and I can easily afford it, ANY day could be "Christmas".

"They" do not tell us when it is time to spend money, or give things away. We do not obey.

Do you ?

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 3:37:14 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I don't lie. I tell my offspring that which I believe -- that there are things in this Universe that cannot be explained by science... that energy is infinite, and that we are capable of shaping energy to our will... that bad things happen, but that they are a foil to the joy that will eventually come... that Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny, and gods of many shapes and sizes -do- exist -- as shapes that we impose on the energy of the Universe in order to fulfill a purpose, and, as such, they are as immortal as we need them to be. When they were young, I gave them a background in the existing mythologies that have withstood the test of time, so that they would have avatars on which to shape their own mastery of the Universe. When they got older, I made sure that they understood that those shapes that we've imposed on the Universe are NOT static... and that we can continue to embrace them where they help us to grow... and let go of the ones that no longer help us to become the best person that we are capable of being... and that we can change them, re-shape them, or re-purpose them throughout our lives (and even abandon labeling of that energy if it serves us to do so).

I -do- believe in Santa Claus... and fairies... and dragons... and chivalry... and honor... and I believe that it is wonderful and amazing to give our children the opportunity to BE children, and to believe in wondrous things. Life will certainly do its part to bring their hopes and dreams to ground soon enough. I believe strongly in giving them something uplifting to BEGIN from, so that when the School of Hard Knocks sets them back a pace or three, they will have some cushioning of hope and dreams on which to land.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 5:40:54 AM

JstAnotherSub

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Santa is not real? Surely you jest!

Santa is a feeling, an innocence, excitement felt about the unknown, something that is only good. Santa is dreams and happiness and love.

When the kids at school begin to wonder and ask me, I always tell them I believe, and that when you quit believing, you quit receiving. That is not about presents, to me, but about the magic of more innocent days, when I still believed all was right in the world.

Kids have to grow up too fast anyhow. Something that adds to the wonder and innocence of childhood is not a lie, IMHO, it is a gift we give them that hopefully pays dividends all their life.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 5:48:04 AM

DesFIP

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OP, you might benefit from some education in how children think. Magical thinking to be exact. They don't see real and unreal in the same way adults do.

Beyond that, by impressing upon them that Santa isn't real, please be aware that you will be causing them hardship. Because the kid who they go up to and say "neener, neener, my mommy says Santa isn't real and your mommy is a liar" is going to go home in tears, and won't be friends with your child after.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 6:18:05 AM

hertz

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I agree with you. Lying to your children is no way to start your relationship with them. It always amazes me that some parents not only tell tales of invented characters as if they were real, but they will also, on occasion, share other equally ridiculous notions with their children, like, for example, 'The tale of the invisible hand', or 'Trickle-down tales', or 'True Democracy'.

Do I have a point? Well, only this: I'm not convinced it is possible to bring children up without misleading them at some point. But as long as eventually the plan is to allow them to think for themselves, then I don't see this necessarily as a problem.

I was taught that Electrons orbit the nucleus of an electron is shells. It's a useful model to teach some parts of chemistry and physics, but it isn't true. I don't mind that I was mislead, because it was a useful model to help me grasp the reality, when I was ready for it.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 6:47:11 AM

barelynangel

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OP, Why do you believe that the only way to control your child would be that you are gonna tell Santa on him/her? Many parents don't resort to that even though they encourage their children to believe in Santa. Your children HAVE an imagination, and to utilize that imagination to bring about a life-long belief in something magical --- i believe many people retain the magical spirit of santa. Its the same as disney world. Its magic. Are we lying to the kids, i don't believe so because i do believe that MANY people maintain the belief in santa just not within the form of a children's story. Just like fairy tales and magical places. Is it lying to allow them to believe in fairy tales, to want to be Cinderelly when they grow up, to be a handsome prince or the knight who slays the dragon?

Or OP, are you so desperate to thrust the kid into the cold dark world of no magic you strip away any form of make-believe and fairy tales and magic that actually does teach them a lot about life in general so they live in the barren world of a world they really don't understand?

Is it lying, no i see it as humoring, humoring their belief in something magical, in allowing them to take their time recognizing the world around them and associating with it on their terms -- not ours as adults. Children do associate all things magical to them eventually in an adult point of view, i still believe in fairy tales, the difference is, i don't believe in the stories but instead i believe in the spirit and concepts they portray. My prince charming is now my version of the Man i see, not cinderelly's version, my fairy god mother is not a mouse on the floor but the world around me and my ability to utilize it to find my dream come true. As i also heard, fairy tales don't teach children there are dragons, they teach children that dragons can be overcome. Children don't grow into adults thinking santa is real, but they do grow into adults believing that santa comes in many forms and that even THEY can be santa.

I believe as a parent you would teach your child how to learn to accept the concept of santa as an adult when they are ready because many of us still do believe in "Santa." So when the child is ready, you take that child from the physical representation to the spiritual one. All in all, i don't believe its lying to allow your child to believe in the physical concept of a spiritual concept in order to learn to understand the spiritual concept. Its a way of teaching concepts a child should learn as they grow into adults.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/26/2010 6:51:25 AM >

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 6:50:33 AM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

OP, you might benefit from some education in how children think. Magical thinking to be exact. They don't see real and unreal in the same way adults do.

Beyond that, by impressing upon them that Santa isn't real, please be aware that you will be causing them hardship. Because the kid who they go up to and say "neener, neener, my mommy says Santa isn't real and your mommy is a liar" is going to go home in tears, and won't be friends with your child after.

This.

In addition to the point many have made.
The Christkindchen is real.
And while my believe in the Christkindchen has transformed from the literal believes of a child into the conceptual believes of an adult, that does not mean that I do not fondly remember the days, when the sound of tinkling of that special bell through the closed living room door heralded the departure of the Christkindchen.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 6:57:58 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

OP, you might benefit from some education in how children think. Magical thinking to be exact. They don't see real and unreal in the same way adults do.

Beyond that, by impressing upon them that Santa isn't real, please be aware that you will be causing them hardship. Because the kid who they go up to and say "neener, neener, my mommy says Santa isn't real and your mommy is a liar" is going to go home in tears, and won't be friends with your child after.

Well, I can tell you not believing in Santa is not a hardship. What was a hardship for me was thinking Santa was real but he just didn't visit us jewish kids.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 6:57:59 AM

rockspider

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One day my daugther aproached me and asked about it was good to lie. Of course i vehemently opposed this. After that she looked at me with her sweet eyes and asked me why i told i believed in Santa last Cristmas. Whooa i wish i had taped that conversation.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:00:29 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

In short, most parents resort to these fictions because they're lazy and they don't think. Because they're a product of their society and unable to operate outside of its programming. Because fundamentally they've lost so much of themselves, they no longer know how to teach.

How sad that you feel this way.

Santa Claus is may be a character of fiction, but the emphasis society puts on this character is very real and cannot be ignored, and that is not a bad thing. The spirit of Santa is wonderful, and the basis for the fantasy is factual. Some feel the origin dates back to Saint Nicholas, who began secret gift giving to those living in poverty. It was a habit back then that shoes were left outside near the door, and St. Nick would leave his gifts in the shoes.

However, my feeling is we give gifts as per the example set by the three Wise Men. This is the emphasis in our home, and my husband and i stress the real meaning of Christmas as much as we can. We give gifts on Christmas to celebrate a birth. And this birth is so important and filled with meaning that there is a character of fiction known world wide who also celebrates it.

And certainly the day will come when they realize that Santa is not real, but if i do my job right as a parent, the spirit of Santa, faith and giving, will be instilled and not forgotten.

So Awareness...say what you will about the parents whose children believe in a jolly fat man, but this "lazy" parent watched little eyes light up at the sight of the presents under the tree on Christmas morning. I saw the delight when tiny hands distributed the gifts that were so labor intensive for a child to make and wrap, and the pride experienced in giving those gifts. And i listened to a sweet voice sing "Happy Birthday" to Baby Jesus later in the day, all in the spirit of Santa Claus.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:04:00 AM

VaguelyCurious

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My family are atheist Jews; I grew up not believing in *anything*.

But if any of you try to tell me that my sense of childlike wonder was in any way compromised by that I will laugh in your face. Kids' imaginations are full of amazing things with or without false input from adults. You can pretend that you wouldn't have invented something just as wondrous by yourself if your parents had told you the truth about Santa (or that you wouldn't have enjoyed the story just as much knowing it was just a story), but I'll have difficulty believing you.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:22:18 AM

sunshinemiss

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Well, I can tell you not believing in Santa is not a hardship. What was a hardship for me was thinking Santa was real but he just didn't visit us jewish kids.

Meh. You got Hanukah Harry.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:30:53 AM

lusciouslips19

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In all seriousness that is something new. I did not grow up with Hannukah Harry.

You guys can laugh it off, but it wasnt cool that my parents perpetuated the whole Santa Clause thing being that we were jewish.
It really isnt a good feeling to grow up like that with all this X-mas swirling around you. On the other hand, as an adult I feel fortunate that all this hooplah is not made over Hannukah and our serious holidays are made for reflecting on being better people.

I told my son right away that Santa Clause was not jewish when they emphasized him in preschool. My son was mad at me and called me a liar. But I said, "do you really think if there was a santa he would stop only at the christian kids houses"?

He realized that would not be in the spirit of Christmas.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 12/26/2010 7:31:56 AM >

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:34:12 AM

maybemaybenot

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OP:

GreedyTop, Kirata and DesFIP already said most of what I think.
Let me add this: Parents * lie * to their children all the time. I suspect you will too.

" Let Mommy kiss your boo boo better " - lie ! you can't kiss boo boo's better. Will you explain the healing process and phagocytosis to your crying child when s/he scrapes a knee ?

" If you don't put your coat on to go outside and play, you will catch a cold/pnuemonia etc " - another lie. That's not how one gets ill.

That's two of hundreds of * lies * parents tell children. I wish you luck, when your child is two-ish and goes thru the long agonizing phase of asking " why " about everything. Why questions that have no answer. I assure you you will make something up after three hours of being asked " why " after everything you say. Either that or you will poke your eye out with a stick from frustration.

Have you ever heard a parent tell their very homely child that they were beautiful ? Have you ever been around a Down's Syndrome child or retarded child and heard some one tell them they were " smart " or " clever " ? Would you have the parents stop lying and tell the child s/he was ugly or stupid ? I assume so, since a lie is a lie is a lie.

I was told Santa was real. My Dad used to tell us stories of when he was a cowboy. He would show us beautiful pictures in Life magazine, National Geographic and tell us all the stories of what it was like to ride his horse along the river at the bottom of the Mesa looking for gold. My Grandfather could lay eggs. Yep, that's right. He would sit down in his * egg laying chair * squawk like a chicken and stand up and there was an egg. I desparately wanted a pony when I was a little girl and I was a very willfull child. < translated difficult >. My parents took me to a park that had pony rides every Saturday and Sunday and told me that " Scotty " was my pony, but he had to stay at the park because we didn't have any place to keep him.

Were they lies ? Maybe to you. I suffer no problems from all the crazy stories and wonders I was given in my childhood. I only have wonderful memories of a magical time. I never thoght my parents or family lied to me, I still don't. They gave me gifts.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:35:28 AM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Well, I can tell you not believing in Santa is not a hardship. What was a hardship for me was thinking Santa was real but he just didn't visit us jewish kids.

Meh. You got Hanukah Harry.

The whole "Meh" attitude is really easy for those who grew up in the general dogma. But try growing up outside of that and its not easy being an outsider.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:43:00 AM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

In short, most parents resort to these fictions because they're lazy and they don't think. Because they're a product of their society and unable to operate outside of its programming. Because fundamentally they've lost so much of themselves, they no longer know how to teach.

How sad that you feel this way.

Santa Claus is may be a character of fiction, but the emphasis society puts on this character is very real and cannot be ignored, and that is not a bad thing. The spirit of Santa is wonderful, and the basis for the fantasy is factual. Some feel the origin dates back to Saint Nicholas, who began secret gift giving to those living in poverty. It was a habit back then that shoes were left outside near the door, and St. Nick would leave his gifts in the shoes.

In Germany we celebrate both. We celebrate St. Nikolaus on the 6th and Christmas seperately and yep, we did put the shoes in front of our bedroom doors and my nephew will start that probably next year...

here is also a link reg. Saint Nicholas

http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19981101/SAINTS/nicholas.htm

when I worked in a childrens village in germany every hosue was named after a holy patron and yes, one of the group houses was House Nikolaus. Every year each house separately celebrated a house festival in honour of the patron their house was named after, which was one of many aspects the kids were taught why they are patrons in the christian community (that employer was raising the kids in a christian way, hence why it was done that way, doesnt mean that every childrens home would do it in such a way).

And whilst our kids knew who is filling their lil booties at night we discussed during that time the meaning of saint nicholas.

Nothing wrong with teaching children in a child appropriate way when they are small and quite frankly I can't remember having ever blamed my parents and grandparents for that

as saint nicholas also left me a booty at grannys house each year

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 7:46:17 AM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSparkie

Take Santa Claus for example, every other parent tells their children that this fictional character is real.
I mean to pass no judgment, but it seems wrong to me to lie to your children by telling them a fictional character is real.

My parents told me from the start that it was fantasy and "play pretend", they NEVER lead me to believe he was actually real. They let me know the story of St. Nick and how the legend of Santa Claus came about.
I don't feel I missed out at all. I'm thankful they told me the truth from the start. When other children my age where growing older and being a bit heartbroken after finding out the truth...I already knew.

I get a lot of crap about this from other parents, but I've already made up my mind to tell my children the TRUE story of St. Nick, just as my parents did. I prefer my children to know FACTS, history, and fill their heads with actual KNOWLEDGE. I will encourage imagination of course, but will NOT ever lead them to believe that a fantasy is indeed reality.

I know there are other parents on this site, input on this? BTW: This doesn't just include Santa Claus, I mean anything that parents lead their children to believe is real or true when it is not. How is this right?

Are you totally and entirely honest with everyone, everyday in every interaction you have with them? Totally and entirely? Never the most benign of white lies? If you are then I commend you as you area rare human being. If you are not then the point of this thread is really quite moot.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 8:50:21 AM

subinlife

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OP, what are you going to tell your children when they see bruises on you after a scene?
Or when they ask why you are moving slower then normal? Are you going to explain the BDSM world to your kids?
Anything else will be a lie.

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RE: Why do Parents tell their children fictional charac... - 12/26/2010 9:04:01 AM

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Just don't tell me now that the tooth fairy is a myth... He's hot and looks just like Duane Johnson.

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