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When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:31:24 AM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Short Disclaimer: I humbly ask people to not rake me over the coals for asking this. I'm just curious, asking a hypothetical question with no specific example in mind, and hoping to generate some interesting discussion. I'm sure answers can vary wildly depending on particular context and the type of dynamic established between the Dominant and the submissive in the relationship. Please insert the context if need be. Okay, on with the question...

What would you think and/or do if your submissive were to say they didn't want to play at that exact moment, weekend, etc. but you, as the Top, were wanting to play? Essentially, the sub decides they were not in a good mindset for play i.e. they were not in the mood? Perhaps it's stress-related, they're tired from a long day at work, or any number of reasons...

Certainly a sub should maintain a mindset that this isn't about my comfort or my enjoyment, it's about serving Her. This was the mentality I tried to abide by when I was in service to my former Mistress. However, the one exception being when I came down with a nasty tropical fever that laid me up in bed for a few weeks. Obviously issues pertaining to health and safety are very legitimate reasons for a submissive to say “No”. By that same rationale do you believe a submissive can take stock of their mental state and decide that right now isn't the best time for play? Or is that ultimately a decision you get to make as the Dominant in the relationship?

Would their level of devotion/submission be called into question if they elect to assert their personal volition in this particular circumstance? I think most would agree that if the sub made a habit of this then there are some bigger factors at work. But what about the rare exception when the sub says, “Not tonight, I don't feel like it"?
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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:38:52 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

What would you think and/or do if your submissive were to say they didn't want to play at that exact moment, weekend, etc. but you, as the Top, were wanting to play? Essentially, the sub decides they were not in a good mindset for play i.e. they were not in the mood? Perhaps it's stress-related, they're tired from a long day at work, or any number of reasons...

It really depends on a LOT of factors. It depends on how much he wants to play and why - exactly - I don't want to play. Generally speaking, if I don't want to play he isn't that interested in it either. Scenes and beatings are more for me than for him. It's more sex where he is likely to go "Tough shit, I want it".
quote:


By that same rationale do you believe a submissive can take stock of their mental state and decide that right now isn't the best time for play? Or is that ultimately a decision you get to make as the Dominant in the relationship?

Last we checked, he can't read my mind and I'm a full competent adult who can tell him my mindset and moods. He relies on me to accurately and honestly keep him up to date on my depression, anxieties, etc. I inform him of my decision/opinion that it isn't a good time for play. What he decides based on that information, the report from those lower in command if you will, is up to him.
quote:


Would their level of devotion/submission be called into question if they elect to assert their personal volition in this particular circumstance? I think most would agree that if the sub made a habit of this then there are some bigger factors at work. But what about the rare exception when the sub says, “Not tonight, I don't feel like it"?

For some people yes.

For us, no. I'm expected to provide accurate and honest information, even if it isn't what he wants to hear. I don't want to play/have sex/go on a walk/do a little dance/etc, it's perfectly acceptable for me to convey this. Now, if I get my preference/desire/etc is another matter entirely.


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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:44:06 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
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From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		what friend says...

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:49:07 AM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah I realize there are definitely a lot of mitigating factors wrapped up in this open-ended question. I'm just curious to hear how various couples/individuals approach this. Thanks for the feedback Aquatic.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:50:31 AM   
SexyBossyBBW


Posts: 1693
Joined: 2/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Certainly a sub should maintain a mindset that this isn't about my comfort or my enjoyment, it's about serving Her. This was the mentality I tried to abide by when I was in service to my former Mistress. However, the one exception being when I came down with a nasty tropical fever that laid me up in bed for a few weeks. Obviously issues pertaining to health and safety are very legitimate reasons for a submissive to say “No”. By that same rationale do you believe a submissive can take stock of their mental state and decide that right now isn't the best time for play? Or is that ultimately a decision you get to make as the Dominant in the relationship?
Yes, the ultimate decision should be made by the dominant, but you are hopefully two human beings in a relationship, who speak openly with one another.    If you are in a severe state emotionally, that would prevent you from suffering a moment for him, than certainly, you should communicate that....  Not as a simple "no", if you care for and respect him/her, but more a "could we please do B instead, because I'm feeling..."

quote:

Would their level of devotion/submission be called into question if they elect to assert their personal volition in this particular circumstance?
It depends entirely on how he expressed his volition at the time.    I'm completely open to a "no", followed by a reason you can't/are not able to.   Just "no", not so much.

quote:

I think most would agree that if the sub made a habit of this then there are some bigger factors at work. But what about the rare exception when the sub says, “Not tonight, I don't feel like it"?
Not tonight, I don't feel like it, would mean to me, something is terribly wrong, and "we need to talk."     Sir/Ma'am, this happened at work or to my family today, and I really feel down/whatever about it, so that my mind is not in the right space to serve well.   Please, may I have a quiet night, and I believe I will be better prepared to talk about this tomorrow.    M

quote:

What would you think and/or do if your submissive were to say they didn't want to play at that exact moment, weekend, etc. but you, as the Top, were wanting to play?
As two adults, the basic relationship would be the guide as to how you communicate, and what is/is not acceptable.   I cannot imagine anyone wouldn't understand, this is a difficult night, when in a relationship; I can also understand the dynamic where he/she will decide what happens, whether it's a good time for you or not.  
Are you in an M/s relationship?   In my thinking, a slave does as he/she is told, mood notwithstanding.   As a domina however, I wouldn't use a slave who was serving in a less than enthusiastic way.     M

< Message edited by SexyBossyBBW -- 12/31/2010 12:52:31 AM >

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 1:04:40 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
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Being told "no" when I am at the height of a femdom "hunger" can be worse than getting interrupted right on the verge of orgasm and left hanging there indefinitely.  I learned a long time ago how to deal with it, and I used to be pretty thorough with men explaining to them, during "down time," that "no" is not something I deal well with when I am in full predatory mode.  I would never make a man do anything against his will; but something about resistance, something about suffering, something about surrender just pushes all my buttons.  So, "well, not tonight, I just don't feel up for it...." sets off all my excitement bells.  This is far different from a man with the flu (who I will want to nurture and take care of), or someone who is emotionally sad (learned of a tragedy, for example), etc -- all my typical female nurturing instincts kick right in.

But, "I just don't feel UP for it..." -- oh yeah, that would get me into serious trouble.  I had a very, very intense fling over a period of many years with a man who told me that submission and bottoming was very draining for him, and he had to be in the right frame of mind.  If I was feeling ravenous and he just wasn't "in the mood" we'd butt heads.  If I am in a serious predatory mood, I try seduction, sex, coercion if I think there's a chance I can break him down.  These mind games and drama are potentially toxic, and I developed a very straightforward wait to deal with it by avoiding it entirely.  While I don't typically use "safewords" in play, I sometimes developed code phrases or language so that I knew when my man really, honestly was not up for it, but there were rules he had to follow.

First, he had to recognize that saying no to me in that mood was honestly very difficult for me to deal with.  Second, he had to immediately tell me *when* he would be up for it, so I could shift my focus into planning -- ie, in a few days? In a week?  Indefinite? If I have a time frame, I can focus on that. 

Next, he had to be prepared to be romantically, sensually, emotionally available -- this is all assuming the "not up for play" thing isn't related to illness or tragedy, but just not in the mood.  If he isn't going to suffer for me, he's going to have to offer up, possibly, some serious cuddling, orgasms or a backrub, should my sadistic streak feel like a little attention as an alternative.

Finally, he had to be open to me having other partners if he was going to be regularly not available. I have a sadistic side that needs to get out and be expressed from time to time - and so if he can't fulfill that, we'd need to find some other solutions.

I wrote a long article on this about fifteen years ago and now I can't find it.  I think it might be "care and feeding of femdoms" or something.  To be honest, most sub men I have known don't have a problem finding the energy to submit at the drop of a hat or even in the face of unrealistic femdom demands.  I dated a lot of "vanilla converts" and "kink curious" men though who were game for a healthy dose of BDSM, but never quite at the frequency or intensity that I needed.  There are the occasional subs though that really have to reach a place emotionally to surrender, and they can be a bit moody about when they are up for BDSM because they have to be mentally prepared.  That's good stuff.

I did point out early on in this post, but to clarify again, I am talking about when a man says "I just am not in the mood," which is far different from "I'm sick today," or "I am hurting," which shut down my femdom lusts pretty squarely and put me right into a mode of nurturing. 

Akasha


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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 1:14:45 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		The theory is that my sub doesn't get to say "no", at least, not in a context of denying my wishes, will or commands. This is the relationship we both signed on for - of rules, structure and an unequal control dynamic slanted toward my choices, not hers.

The fact is that we are both human and I have a standard whereby I'll accept a reason (for anything) but not an excuse. If she's sick, tired, stressed etc; they are valid "no" reasons and frankly, I'd be a bit disappointed if I hadn't already noticed warning signs of it in her general behaviour.

But "not in the mood" etc, that's just not on, AT ALL. I'd regard such an answer as just an excuse and she'd have plenty of explaining to do. That's all the old cliche's - topping from the bottom, her taking control etc. It's the kind of thing that threatens the entire relationship because I just won't have it.

Focus.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 1:15:49 AM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you so much SexyBossyBBW and AAkasha!!! Very insightful!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW

Are you in an M/s relationship?  


No, I'm not currently in a M/s relationship. I didn't have much in particular in mind in asking this. Just been in a very self-reflective mood lately and processing what it means to be submissive. Thanks again.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 1:34:25 AM   
CherryNeko


Posts: 330
Joined: 12/29/2010
From: Mexico City
Status: offline
quote:

What would you think and/or do if your submissive were to say they didn't want to play at that exact moment, weekend, etc. but you, as the Top, were wanting to play?


In my relationship, it's fifty fifty. When I need it, he answers, and so do I when he asks. Since this is a two-way compromise, I usually focus on quickly getting on my knees, then the feeling arises. It is not that I always want to play; it's just that every time he comes and asks, it's because he's been setting the mood. So it doesn't happen a lot.
However, if I didn't want to play, he would have realized. I tend to be transparent. I guess Doms have to pay attention to that, before asking, or like turn on the oven and see if it works. I personally think that if it is because of stress, there's no better way to get rid of it. However, I firmly believe both parts have the right to say no whenever they want to, and negotiation is all it takes.

quote:

Certainly a sub should maintain a mindset that this isn't about my comfort or my enjoyment, it's about serving Her.


We subs have prerrogatives, you know! Oh my god. I like more - and focus more - in a different mindset: 'it IS about my comfort and enjoyment as a sub, and serving my Dom will make me happy.' Then it's fun if you add a 'won't it?' at the end of the phrase and realize that most of the times, yes, it will. Maybe it's because it hasn't happened to me completely, but if the answer was a no, then the mindset is broken by the circumstances. Your partner will take it into account if you tell them, because they won't get any satisfaction of forcing you to do it against your will.

quote:

By that same rationale do you believe a submissive can take stock of their mental state and decide that right now isn't the best time for play?


Yes, of course. If you start thinking of playing as of an obligation, it won't be playing anymore, thus ruining it all. Playing is fun!

quote:

Or is that ultimately a decision you get to make as the Dominant in the relationship?


Well, yes, but I seriously don't think the Dominant will insist if the sub isn't feeling like it. It's not sexy anymore, it kills the mood.

quote:

Would their level of devotion/submission be called into question if they elect to assert their personal volition in this particular circumstance?


Of course yes, because they would both be thinking about this, but it wouldn't be fair because there is a reason for saying no.

quote:

I think most would agree that if the sub made a habit of this then there are some bigger factors at work. But what about the rare exception when the sub says, “Not tonight, I don't feel like it"?


I agree with you, but if it's a rare exception, the Dominant will like, want to wait? If Dom insists, the sub can insist too. If the Dominant insists again, then maybe he isn't paying much attention to the sub's necessities, which is a more powerful reason not to play.

I also think that if a sub is forced to play, the thrill of playing will be lost, and the relationship will suffer. It's like any other relationship.

By the way, this thread was your 24th post. Say farewell to your vanilla icon!

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 1:56:18 AM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Cherry for the response.

quote:

We subs have prerrogatives, you know! Oh my god. I like more - and focus more - in a different mindset:'it IS about my comfort and enjoyment as a sub, and serving my Dom will make me happy.' Then it's fun if you add a 'won't it?' at the end of the phrase and realize that most of the times, yes, it will.
Good point, I wholeheartedly agree! I guess I'm so accustomed to seeing "subs" on CM saying, "I want 'this', 'this', and 'this' from a Dom/me" that I overcompensate sometimes.

Oh... and thanks for the heads up on the 25 posts. Didn't realize that's how it works. Guess I'll have to go have a beer now in celebration of my "Vanilla cherry" being popped!




< Message edited by ThePeripatetic -- 12/31/2010 1:57:37 AM >

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 2:26:32 AM   
sweetspank


Posts: 1
Joined: 3/5/2010
Status: offline 		as a bottom, the IDEA of saying no is off limits, BUT my top is very in tune with me and he knows where my mind is always

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 2:52:37 AM   
SexyBossyBBW


Posts: 1693
Joined: 2/25/2010
Status: offline 		ThePeripatetic, you should pay close attention to this advice from Focus50 as well, IMO.    I agree, that my sub/slave does not get to simply say "no."
quote:

The theory is that my sub doesn't get to say "no", at least, not in a context of denying my wishes, will or commands. This is the relationship we both signed on for - of rules, structure and an unequal control dynamic slanted toward my choices, not hers.

The fact is that we are both human and I have a standard whereby I'll accept a reason (for anything) but not an excuse.
Knowing your dominant/Master as a human being, is key to a working/warkable relationship.    I insist on my way, but not if it's making the other sick and emotionally distraught.   Communication is key.    The thing to understand, IMO, is know the person with whom you are in a relationship, and find a way to speak with him/her clearly, honestly, and as tactfully as possible.

Sometimes, someone will use you to his/her specifications, even if you don't feel like it.   How often that occurs, will be largely dependent on whether you chose someone who is a decent counterpart for you.    You need to accept responsibility for whomever you choose, and decide whether that dynamic works for you long term.

We all only have this one life, and so, you will have to choose how to best live it for yourself.     M

< Message edited by SexyBossyBBW -- 12/31/2010 2:56:08 AM >

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"Only when there are many people who are pools of peace, silence, understanding, will war disappear." -Osho

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 4:28:02 AM   
ThePeripatetic


Posts: 139
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline 		To SexyBossyBBW and Focus50: I absolutely agree. I think that's very solid advice. Thanks for the input!!!

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 5:16:52 AM   
MaxsGirl


Posts: 355
Joined: 12/2/2010
From: The Arctic Circle
Status: offline 		In my relationship there are no safewords and there is no "no".  But this only works for us because we're very much in tune to each other's moods, and I am required to let him know if I'm feeling ill, exhausted, or otherwise not up to a play session.  The final decision on any play, chores, or anything else that's expected of me is up to him.  It's important for an owner/dom to show consideration for how their property is feeling (physically and emotionally) and act accordingly.  Being a sub/slave shouldn't mean being treated like dirt, or having your feelings ignored.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 7:16:49 AM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		Consider how a judge would react if this was a vanilla male-female relationship instead of Dom-Sub. Jail time sound like fun to you?

The sub has the right to say no whenever and however often they don't want to play.

But if the sub is male, I assure you they know the inverse rule that the Dominant can also say no whenever and however often they want to. A smart female slave will know this also, though I have met a few that needed to learn this the hard way. Moreover, they also know that

If the Sub say no too often, the Dominant will leave them.

So ask yourself, is this happening? Are they saying No to often? From the sound of it, that is not happening. Realise that life is not fantasy - there are real life limitations that interfere with our kink lifes, and sometimes that may means the Domme may have to wait.

< Message edited by StrongSpirit -- 12/31/2010 7:17:30 AM >

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 8:06:25 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
The fact is that we are both human and I have a standard whereby I'll accept a reason (for anything) but not an excuse.


Best response in the whole thread, in My opinion.  I feel the very same way about it.  A legitimate reason is one thing.  That's information that I need to be provided in order to make the best decision on the matter.  An excuse (i.e. just don't feel like it) doesn't have the same weight with Me.  There needs to be an answer to a why question in there somewhere.  Whatever that is, I consider to be knowledge I should have to make an effective decision.

Somebody during the thread said something to the effect that play isn't fun if it's being done against the submissive's will.  I can't say that I agree with that a hundred percent.  Sure, that's what should happen a large majority of the time or you have to start looking at compatibility.  However, there are times that the submissive's position in the dynamic is to........ submit.  There absolutely are situations and activities that I want to engage in specifically for the reason that he doesn't want to because it's hot for Me to exercise My authority over him.  When I'm in the mood for it, his obedience in doing the things that he doesn't want to do, turns Me on.  Same with beating him with the toy that he doesn't like and telling him that he'd better thank Me for it.  (Best time in the world for those magic words, "Thank you, Mistress; May I have another?  Music to My ears when I'm enjoying his suffering.)  As a sadist, I get off on it.

On a reasonable level, I'm not going to have that kind of yen when he's sick, overtired, or there are just too many demands on him from his responsibilities from work, etc.  That tends to pull the plug on the inspiration for those times that I want situations like the above.  Being told "I just don't feel like it" without information about circumstances might have the opposite effect and ignite the spark.



(I almost feel like I should close this with:  Hate mail about how I'm not being 'nice' to My submissive can be sent to Lady Pact c/o CM.com.)

 


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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 8:38:59 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		LAdyP... what about times when the sub/bottom really doesnt feel like it, but is unable to articulate WHY.  Being someone who is prone to bouts of depression, there have been times when "I dont feel like it" is the best answer I can arrive at.. I cant pinpoint WHY.. sometimes there isnt a reason to be pinpointed.. and sometimes I dont realize that a depressive period has taken over (until after it has passed).

Tricky to navigate, I know.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 8:58:42 AM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline 		The dynamics of our relationship is that I own my collared property; they don't get safewords and they don't get to tell me no unless it's prefaced with a "please" and it involves begging. 

The reality is that if you use your property inappropriately, you can damage it.  If your well-loved truck needs a new tire, the rim is bent and it's low on oil, you *can* keep right on using it for pleasure trips if you want.  But that's really not the smartest decision to make if you intend to own and operate it for a long, long time.  When downtime for repairs is needed, the smart owner makes sure that time happens, and doesn't keep running their property roughshod until it crashes.  Ask the owners of a valuable horse the same thing.  Ignoring the actual condition of your property and running it into the ground is very poor management, and it results in damaged property.

I trust my boys to put forth every good faith effort to do their part in the relationship, and sometimes they will try to do so past the point that it's probably a good idea for them.  If either of them asks to be excused from something, it's likely to be for a damn good reason, so I'm almost always going to listen.  Actually my primary tends to put my whims over his needs to the point that I've had to stop him when I realized that he needed a break and wasn't willing to ask for one.  My secondary is a type 1 diabetic and is more accustomed to being constantly aware of his body condition and making his health a priority, so he self-monitors and communicates his limitations much better.  They both genuinely want to please, and neither is selfish or irresponsible, so there really isn't a problem on the occasions that one or both of them says they don't have much energy and need to rest.  They're simply telling the truth, and that is what they are encouraged to do.

Ultimately I make the decision as to whether the task at hand is worth spending the coin of the very last dregs of their energy, knowing that denying them recovery time will make it difficult for them the next day.  If the next day is a work day, then the answer is almost certainly not.   We live in the real world, and that means not doing dumb stuff that sabotages our basic real life responsibilities.  I *can* make that decision, but being a responsible head of household, I'm not going to. 


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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 9:04:30 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline 		Hmmm … I said no once or twice … that’s why I am always seekingOwner … too!

Truthfully, the fastest way for a man to end a relationship, is to say no, without a valid reason! Vanilla or kink.

Trust me, I am an ex-pert!

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 9:29:27 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

LAdyP... what about times when the sub/bottom really doesnt feel like it, but is unable to articulate WHY.  Being someone who is prone to bouts of depression, there have been times when "I dont feel like it" is the best answer I can arrive at.. I cant pinpoint WHY.. sometimes there isnt a reason to be pinpointed.. and sometimes I dont realize that a depressive period has taken over (until after it has passed).

Tricky to navigate, I know.

Not as much as you might think.

I find that, more often than not, the folks intimately involved with a person who has bouts of depression will see the signs before the person who is hitting those lows themselves.  Those subtle things that the person experiencing the depression doesn't notice because they are the one who is slipping in mood just a bit.  The signs are more noticeable to folks around you than they probably are to yourself.  My other half can tell if I'm depressed faster than I can tell you, Myself. 

Also, I tend to be a very inquisitive.  If we've got a change in pattern of some type, I'm going to start digging.  Getting answers that are uncharacteristic can be a pretty good hint.  That's going to shift My focus to a different area and I'm more likely to save that fun stuff (for Me) that I mentioned earlier for another time.



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The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to GreedyTop)
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