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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 9:41:51 AM

GreedyTop

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see..? and this is why I admire you so much.

Sadly, in my experience, you are an anomoly (sp?).

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 9:58:15 AM

subinlife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

LAdyP... what about times when the sub/bottom really doesnt feel like it, but is unable to articulate WHY. Being someone who is prone to bouts of depression, there have been times when "I dont feel like it" is the best answer I can arrive at.. I cant pinpoint WHY.. sometimes there isnt a reason to be pinpointed.. and sometimes I dont realize that a depressive period has taken over (until after it has passed).

Tricky to navigate, I know.

Not as much as you might think.

I find that, more often than not, the folks intimately involved with a person who has bouts of depression will see the signs before the person who is hitting those lows themselves. Those subtle things that the person experiencing the depression doesn't notice because they are the one who is slipping in mood just a bit. The signs are more noticeable to folks around you than they probably are to yourself. My other half can tell if I'm depressed faster than I can tell you, Myself.

Also, I tend to be a very inquisitive. If we've got a change in pattern of some type, I'm going to start digging. Getting answers that are uncharacteristic can be a pretty good hint. That's going to shift My focus to a different area and I'm more likely to save that fun stuff (for Me) that I mentioned earlier for another time.

LadyPact, you are indeed a very wise woman.
Like GreedyTop my depression sneaks up on me, I would hope my Dom is as wise as you.

Happy New Year All

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 10:08:48 AM

Tantriqu

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I find it's different with different subs, and we have to use words. I've been lucky with most subs that outside of work and vanilla commitments that they are ready, willing and able to Serve at any time. But it was a lesson for me for one with a very busy call schedule who Served beautifully even when he was sleepless and tired: Serving was more important. I could feel his energy was down from a single touch, and ready to excuse him would say, 'Oh, but you're tired', and he would always respond, 'But never too tired for THIS!'.
However, my last sub, who Served beautifully twice a day every day, morning and night, would not be mentally or emotionally available, even if he were physically present, during Scottish football day games. Huh. I'd read about men who'd rather watch sport than be fucked, but I'd never met one before.
All subs also know I have a high drive, and need a LOT of OSODD which skyrockets even higher during certain times in my cycle, and in a positive feedback loop :-D between us.
And I've never had a sub say, 'No, thanks, i don't want to take a strap-on tonight, maybe next weekend', but as above, I would listen to a reason, not an excuse.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:05:14 PM

hausboy

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Just one more opinion on the pile here:
For me (and what *was* my long term relationship)--either one of us had the right to say "no' any time, for any reason. Our BDSM relationship was not 24/7 in the traditional sense, and we both felt strongly that if one of us was not physically or mentally up for sex/play/etc. at that moment, that it would not be enjoyable for either of us.

We both (my ex and I) have histories that involved sexual abuse/rape/non-consentual activity--and so it was particularly important that when it came to our bodies, that if either of us needed some control of our bodies at that moment, that it was afforded.

So for me, in my house, "no" pretty much always means "no" without any other dynamic involved.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 12:18:49 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

So for me, in my house, "no" pretty much always means "no" without any other dynamic involved.

I agree with that very much, it might be disappointing but after all we are not living in BDSM fantasy land and we are dealing with real people... Somebody using "NO" regularly as a power game, well, ways would have to part, somebody using no because it would upset them, physically or mentally to play at the moment, not an issue, at the end of the day there's a human on both ends of the whip...

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 3:01:41 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

The theory is that my sub doesn't get to say "no", at least, not in a context of denying my wishes, will or commands. This is the relationship we both signed on for - of rules, structure and an unequal control dynamic slanted toward my choices, not hers.

The fact is that we are both human and I have a standard whereby I'll accept a reason (for anything) but not an excuse. If she's sick, tired, stressed etc; they are valid "no" reasons and frankly, I'd be a bit disappointed if I hadn't already noticed warning signs of it in her general behaviour.

But "not in the mood" etc, that's just not on, AT ALL. I'd regard such an answer as just an excuse and she'd have plenty of explaining to do. That's all the old cliche's - topping from the bottom, her taking control etc. It's the kind of thing that threatens the entire relationship because I just won't have it.

Focus.

This, in entirety.

I'd add one thing ........It'd threaten the entire relationship for us, because it isn't what EITHER of us agreed to, not just because he wouldn't have it.

If I'm not in the mood, that's fine, I'm not exactly a direct mirror of what he wants, when he wants it. He hasn't a problem with me not being in the *mood*.......but there is NO option to say *No, you can't......because I'm not in the mood*.

Well, I could SAY it, but it'd be the fastest route to finding myself doing whatever it was I wasn't *in the mood for* just for starters.

agirl

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 8:19:42 PM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

LAdyP... what about times when the sub/bottom really doesnt feel like it, but is unable to articulate WHY. Being someone who is prone to bouts of depression, there have been times when "I dont feel like it" is the best answer I can arrive at.. I cant pinpoint WHY.. sometimes there isnt a reason to be pinpointed.. and sometimes I dont realize that a depressive period has taken over (until after it has passed).

Tricky to navigate, I know.

This is the kind of thing I was alluding to.... "No" is merely a verbal response; that being in a relationship with someone means you get to learn their body language, too. My girl can say 'no' and not be in the mood etc, but I'll need a reason from her - be it verbal or what I've come to learn from her general health and body language, etc.

I'd prefer her to enjoy a scene (for eg) from her sub perspective as much as I do from my own. But if I think a "no" is merely reflective of an attitude from her, then the bottom line is that I don't really need *my property* to be "in the mood" for most things I have in mind, anyway. And I'd likely make a point of it along the way; go that extra yard etc.

"Attitude" is about relationship power and I'm sure it's probably a recognised Chinese "Hell" for a Dom/me to lost that struggle....

Focus.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 8:22:28 PM

hematitan

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For me, I wouldn't be comfortable in a dynamic where I wasn't allowed to say no. But I'm not cut out for a 24/7 dynamic, either.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 12/31/2010 11:18:17 PM

sunshinemiss

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If I say no, I have a good reason. I would hope that someone I'm involved with knows and trusts me enough to respect that. On the other hand, I don't take advantage and say no when it is a whim or tired or stressed or whatever. That's how the other person knows I have a good reason - because no doesn't mean "well, maybe." It means there is something serious going on and we need to deal with it.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 10:02:00 AM

SpiritedRadiance

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For me no means no, it doesnt mean maybe it doesnt mean well some times it doesnt mean "well im the dom and you signed up for this. your going to do it anyway" No means No...

any Dom who thinks its okay with me to continue saying no better like a jail cell because thats where hes headed... D/s unequal power dynamic or not.

and i can count on two fingers the times ive said no to a partner i was with...

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 10:30:09 AM

leadership527

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Well, Carol and I don't "play" so I'll substitute sex for play.

Answer 1: In the big picture, Carol and I are very much on the same page and like to stay that way. Generally, it is true that if one of us strongly wants or doesn't want something then the other conforms. Whether or not I was hot to trot, if Carol was strongly not wanting to have sex, then it'd cool my ardor also. And by that I mean REALLY cool my ardor. Not, "I still want to have sex but I can't because she doesn't want to." It'd be more like, "Wow, I really wanted to have sex until I found out she has a splitting migraine and now what I really want to do is nurture her."

Answer 2: In the end, it is imperative that the dominant make choices that support whatever his or her personal goals are. For me, my goals are a happy, lasting relationship. I make my choices accordingly. That means my decision processes are not centered on what I want vs. what she wants. I tend to think in terms of what we want. In the case where I want to have sex and she does not, I'd be thinking more along the lines of, "I have mixed feelings about having sex, what do I want to do?" That sort of thinking supports the deeply intimate emotional connection I want with Carol. Her feelings and emotions are fully adopted as my own within my own head.

Answer 3: For Carol and I specifically, a part of what is important in our relationship is the TPE part. That means that total must be preserved if at all possible. So if for whatever reasons I come to the end conclusion that ought to be having sex, then it really doesn't matter how much she didn't want to have it. In fact, we just went through this a few days ago. She was angry... strongly so... and very much didn't want to have sex. I took her anyway... quickly and aggressively and for my pleasure. She was pretty pissed about it... enough so to bring it up the next day which is a very, very rare thing between us.

So I suppose my answer is that this is a highly nuanced sort of question. Generically, the question is "What when there is a strong disagreement between A & B?" The success of the relationship as a whole is likely going to be significantly influenced by how well the dominant resolves such situations. "Well", in this case, is defined by "choices which act to support the dominant's goals."

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 1/1/2011 10:34:28 AM >

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 11:52:52 AM

Passion8Kisser

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Hmmmmm, well...Speaking for myself (the dome part of a maybe slightly switchy side) and my Dom. We'd rather hear "Well, I'm not in the mindframe to serve you or be intimate with you right now" (Which can lead to an honest discussion of why not.) Than to have a submissive say that they are exhausted or hurting when in fact that is not at all the truth. The flip side of that might be acquiscessing to the "play", yet remaining in the mindset of anger, bitterness, jealousy, and explosive negative emotions that should be talked about and cleared up first. What would that feel like for either party, I can't quite imagine, but I don't think they are going to have a great and wonderful time of it. I don't think the memories looking at that session or day or event are going to be positive and pleasant. And as a couple I think that growth, development and clear communications have been prevented as much as if the sub used the "reason" of being tired or sore as an excuse.

There may be times a sub says no out of brattiness, or as a refusal to bend a hard limit.. Those are slightly different. I think if a sub says "No" to something they usually do, or that has been discussed and done/agreed upon, it is the Doms job to decide if the submissive is being bratty. I can see that earning some form of punishment. I like the replies that included the Top turning around and saying no, maybe after highly arousing the sub. Because it seems effective and if you can't be a good little sub, maybe the paddling or sex that you want, really isn't what's best for you.

If it's refusal to bend a hard limit, I guess that becomes about your power dynamics. Is your bottom supposed to be a limitless slave, or have they said these are my limits, but I want to submit inside of them. Then it also becomes up to the Dominant to decide if and how to push those limits. For example I had started with breath play as a hard limit, partly because there are vague stories about people accidently dying from breath play. Partly because it was something I just didn't think I would enjoy. my Dom started playing his hand at my throat, and then getting no objections from me, but a very submissive reaction of almost deer in the headlight look, he started to put a little pressure into it. Now that is one of my list of kinks...to feel his powerful hand against my vulnerable throat gets me excited. So sometimes we grow when our Dom presses our limits.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 12:38:00 PM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

any Dom who thinks its okay with me to continue saying no better like a jail cell because thats where hes headed... D/s unequal power dynamic or not.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate (or translate) here as I can't make head nor tail as to why "any Dom" is headed to jail here. Not even after I clicked your profile to know if you're D or s, or even m or f. (fem/sub for those equally confused)

Of course, the aging cynic in me might think your tender age is a clue....

Focus.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 12:44:05 PM

immoral

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sometimes ive been unwell or generally reticent...... i think i would be true to say that im asked what the issue is and the issue is worked around, i wouldnt deny service because *im not in the mood* sometimes i have been allowed a break sometimes i have not for me *no* isnt really an option...but as a slave not a sub thats what i signed up for.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 1:33:59 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

any Dom who thinks its okay with me to continue saying no better like a jail cell because thats where hes headed... D/s unequal power dynamic or not.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate (or translate) here as I can't make head nor tail as to why "any Dom" is headed to jail here. Not even after I clicked your profile to know if you're D or s, or even m or f. (fem/sub for those equally confused)

Of course, the aging cynic in me might think your tender age is a clue....

Focus.

Well, If I say No I dont wish to have sex, and my Dom decided that him as the dom wants to have sex anyway because hes the dom and thats what i "signed up for..." it means hes raping me taking me against my will, and thats illegal.

If I say No and my partner continues, i will press charges for that person continuing and assaulting me against my will...

Hence the explaining NO... means NO.... it doesnt mean well maybe or some times its okay it means stop cease desist... dont do it.

Ive said no a total of two times in an established power dynamic, and both of those times were for that person violating my limits completely. Its my "this is no longer a power dynamic we are no longer in a relationship where your demands matter... It means Im revoking that consent due to the fact you or I or something here is SERIOUSLY fucked up."

(Does that clear it up for ya?)

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 3:47:53 PM

Lockit

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No? What is this word that you all speak of? I've never had a man say no to me. What would this mean?

It means that there is a way to present whatever he has to say to me without that word. It means that I pay attention and have rarely crossed a line I couldn't see coming. It means we communicate and find another way and part of communication is paying attention to one another.

Now if we are talking about him saying fuck off... I have heard that. lol Totally a different story, but kind of the same. That was when they didn't like my communications and I wouldn't do things their way. In fact, I am sure I hear that about once a week in email.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 3:53:33 PM

DarkSteven

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No means different things at different points in a relationship. If it's at the beginning, it means that I'm learning what flies and what doesn't. If it comes after a while together, it likely means that there's something bugging her, so that something she should be fine with has suddenly changed to her not wanting to please me.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 4:08:03 PM

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Thank you, Steven!

Am I the only one looking at where people are in a dynamic? (Rhetorical.)

Spirited, I'm not intentionally being confrontational here, but don't you think that your situations, which were basically end of the dynamic, come into play here? That's different than where My focus is on the subject.

I won't make any apologies for those times that it's not some big emotional/mental/personal boundaries issue. There is a difference between that and the 'I just don't feel like it' stuff. There are varying degrees here, and I would hope to heaven that, as a Dominant, as his Dominant, I know the difference.

Just My thoughts, anyway.

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 4:18:01 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thank you, Steven!

Am I the only one looking at where people are in a dynamic? (Rhetorical.)

Spirited, I'm not intentionally being confrontational here, but don't you think that your situations, which were basically end of the dynamic, come into play here? That's different than where My focus is on the subject.

I won't make any apologies for those times that it's not some big emotional/mental/personal boundaries issue. There is a difference between that and the 'I just don't feel like it' stuff. There are varying degrees here, and I would hope to heaven that, as a Dominant, as his Dominant, I know the difference.

Just My thoughts, anyway.

It does come into question. The only time I would tell my partner No in a situation would be when if going forward would end the dynamic, damage one, both of us, or others involved, or would otherwise bring harm to the situation.... otherwise I ask to speak about whats bothering me. Its why I stress very early on with a partner that No means no its not a push here point. I tried to clarify it for Focus, as to what situations I would say it and Why its important not to push it. I dont abuse the word to take back power in the relationship or otherwise manipulate the situation....

I have many times when I dont feel like it. My partner like you described earlier usually picks up on the why I feel like that and feeds me apples and all is right with the world...

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RE: When a sub says "No" - 1/1/2011 6:45:50 PM

strangedesire

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I am very, very dogmatic about consent. I believe that anyone has a right to withdraw consent to anything at any time* and for any reason. I'll let this become fuzzy in specific instances: I can do the "I will hurt you past the point where you want me to stop" as long as I'm sure that he knows what he's getting into, and it ends at an agreed-upon point. I suppose I'm not cut out for 24/7.

Actually, I fucking love consent. I can be much more cruel, and push much harder, if I trust my partner to tell me when I go too far. I don't want to damage anyone, but I love being able to ride the edge of limits.

In practical terms, though? I can't see the issue of someone "saying no, just because" ever coming up. Possibly this is because I routinely get involved with people who have higher sex drives than I do. If I asked my girl for sex or play and she said no, it would mean that something was wrong and I had missed it. On the other hand, the boytoy only wants to play on rare occasions when he's in the mood for me - and that's why we aren't in a relationship.

I've had people actually go into bad headspace during play, and they usually don't say "no" or safeword. Maybe because I catch it before they do? That empathy thing.

And honestly, I rarely say no to my girl, either. She might not get exactly what she wants, but I care about her, and that means that we work to satisfy each others' needs. A flat-out no either means that something is wrong with one of us, or something is wrong with the relationship.

*And so in bad situations you will sometimes, find me, shaking my fist at the sky, and shouting the universe that I do not consent. The universe doesn't seem to care, but it still makes me feel better.

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