RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 5:57:49 AM)

see, i've never understood that either -- the tendency by some "regulars" to berate someone who's sticking up for someone else. that's the problem with cliqueyness -- it creates this mob sense of entitlement -- "we should be able to attack other people and poke fun at them, because we're the super clique! we're awesome!"
i don't like that. i generally stay away from cliques for THAT reason. i like to have a wide variety of friends, and usually end up sorted into "clique by default" -- with the other people who avoid cliques. hahaha
and simply saying "deal with it" -- well sure, yes, ultimately that's what everyone has to do. but it's also a bit of a cop-out by some people because it puts the blame for their bad behavior on you -- "i'll act like an asshole over here, and if you have a problem with it, it's your problem." ultimately it is, but being an asshole is not necessary.

well, and some people are just more brave online when there's no real person to stand up to. that contributes to a lot of the excessively rude or argumentative posting. Being bitchy and rude and snarky is easy when the accumulation of 0s and 1s on your screen can't punch you in the face. =p



RCdc -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 5:59:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Hi RCdc

I think cliques rock if your in one. I think there are good cliques and bad cliques and I think you often aren't aware that your actually part of a clique. People are certainly braver when in a clique.

Hello Maria!  Big love to You and Steve. x

I totally agree with you.  I also think that people can be mistaken for being in a clique.  I can't name the recent thread off the top of my head, but I remember that you were basically told you were part of the gang (whatever gang that might be) - in other words it's a kind of 'acceptance'.  But as far as you are concerned (having met you, I am pretty much working on your personality as you come across to me) - you probably think thats lovely, but would it matter if you weren't?  I doubt it.  Same goes for us and that's is probably the reason we have been on this site for so long.  So it's not always that you are emotionally or physically part of a clique on a personal level, but accepted by it.

quote:

I agree with what you say about people being afraid to speak their mind to someone they have met.

There is also the thing that people tend to be more polite to people they have met, mainly because they have confirmed that they are what they say they are.  It's a kind of respect.

quote:

Merc and me had some real heated discussions and disagreements on the boards even though we happen to like each other and got on well in rl. Where the hell are they btw? I miss them :(


I agree 100%!  But would that then make the six of us a 'clique'?[:D]  Meh, at least its a fab one...[;)]



RapierFugue -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:02:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
It's all pretty much subjective.

Exactly; which means that it's not the actions taken that are the factor, but people's reactions to them. Most reasonably well-adjusted people would look at a large group of human beings and say to themselves “well the chances are I’ll find a few people in this crowd I really like, a few I can’t stand, and a great mass in the middle I'm not fussed about one way or the other”, and proceed on that basis. What the whiners do is effectively demand to be loved or agreed with across the board, and then pitch a fat one when they're not. Real life doesn't work that way, and therefore neither do forum interactions.

As a (fair weathered) biker I get this a lot, both online and IRL; there’s this “we’re a Brotherhood” attitude from a lot of people – the assumption, just because people share a hobby, or a “lifestyle” (or even a kink), that they're somehow therefore likely to be linked, socially or intellectually; it’s complete hogwash, and only sets the “believer” up for a fall. People are just that; people, and you relate to them as individuals, or as a social group. Just because you share one section of your life or interests with them doesn't make you instant bestest friends (though of course it does provide a shared topic for initial conversations), nor does it mean that, if you talk crap (or even if you don't), someone in the group isn't going to say “hang on, you're talking crap”. You can either take it on the chin, as part of the price of contributing to a wider community, and therefore having the chance to make friends (and maybe lovers) or you can run off and hide under Mummy’s skirts.

Life (including relationships and social interactions) can be difficult and challenging. Get over it.



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:07:29 AM)

There is a line in a great old song that goes "Take what you want and leave the rest".  That is what I do on this site.  Hell, that is what I do in life most days.

The day I allow on line shit to get to me and affect me personally, I will log off for good.  It is all fun for me in one way or tuther, even when someone thinks I am a moron, or I think they are.

Of course, it helps that I am not cool or in a clique and no one reads anything I type!

;o)



RCdc -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:15:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

If you want to participate in the forums, as with life, show others what YOU want to see. "be the change you want to see in the world," to quote Ghandi. =p hahaha


Absolutely, rock on![:)]

quote:

see, i've never understood that either -- the tendency by some "regulars" to berate someone who's sticking up for someone else. that's the problem with cliqueyness -- it creates this mob sense of entitlement -- "we should be able to attack other people and poke fun at them, because we're the super clique! we're awesome!"
i don't like that. i generally stay away from cliques for THAT reason. i like to have a wide variety of friends, and usually end up sorted into "clique by default" -- with the other people who avoid cliques. hahaha


It happens.  I like the 'in a clique by default' setting analagythingy...[:D]

quote:

and simply saying "deal with it" -- well sure, yes, ultimately that's what everyone has to do. but it's also a bit of a cop-out by some people because it puts the blame for their bad behavior on you -- "i'll act like an asshole over here, and if you have a problem with it, it's your problem." ultimately it is, but being an asshole is not necessary.


When I say 'deal with it' that is more aimed at those who are in cliques (on the whole), not those being 'bullied'.
The times I see people moan about cliques, and then those say 'Im in no freaking clique'.... when they are -  and then go on to say 'cliques don't exist'.... when they do.  I'll accept your critisism - I'm not always good with words and sometimes use them inappropriately... maybe I should be say - Cliques exist and you are in it, accept it and be cool and happy.

quote:

well, and some people are just more brave online when there's no real person to stand up to. that contributes to a lot of the excessively rude or argumentative posting. Being bitchy and rude and snarky is easy when the accumulation of 0s and 1s on your screen can't punch you in the face. =p


Ah, but then you get the ....'what you see is what you get with me' comment and people being really adamant that they would take to you like this in the real.
I could be really bitchy and make a comment on that kinda reaction - but I'm too 'nice'[:'(].[:D]

And LOVING the lashes... omg.[:)]



tazzygirl -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:15:54 AM)

Did you say something, Jst?



RapierFugue -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:16:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
i don't like that. i generally stay away from cliques for THAT reason. i like to have a wide variety of friends, and usually end up sorted into "clique by default" -- with the other people who avoid cliques. hahaha

lol, yes ... that's the thing about "cliques" - they're a shorthand for "people who have some connection with one another, even if its transitory or only on this topic under discussion now". Nothing more, nothing less. Most "cliques" are labelled so by people outside them, because it's a derrogatory way of crying about not being part of such a grouping. I don't consider myself part of any "clique" on CM, and I've had some major arguments with certain people in my time, but I don't see that as either their "fault" or mine, and certainly not CM's fault. It's just Life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
and simply saying "deal with it" -- well sure, yes, ultimately that's what everyone has to do. but it's also a bit of a cop-out by some people because it puts the blame for their bad behavior on you -- "i'll act like an asshole over here, and if you have a problem with it, it's your problem." ultimately it is, but being an asshole is not necessary.


It doesn't give people carte blanche, no. But if one doesn't like or respect an individual's output on CM there's a little thing called the "Hide" facility that means you don't have to interact with them. I often wonder why people don't just use that, instead of whining about how unfair it all is (a.k.a. "Kevin The Teenager Mode"). It's a 2-way street, and people should take responsibility for their own actions, including not bullying people, but also not pitching a fit if someone else disagrees with them vehemently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
well, and some people are just more brave online when there's no real person to stand up to. that contributes to a lot of the excessively rude or argumentative posting. Being bitchy and rude and snarky is easy when the accumulation of 0s and 1s on your screen can't punch you in the face.

Agreed. One of the few "rules" I try to always apply to myself is to never say anything online I wouldn't IRL.

Thing is, there's not much I wouldn't say IRL, so that's not really much of a restraining influence ;) If someone's being a clot IRL I'll tend to say "you're being a clot".



RapierFugue -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:18:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

There is a line in a great old song that goes "Take what you want and leave the rest".  That is what I do on this site.  Hell, that is what I do in life most days.

The day I allow on line shit to get to me and affect me personally, I will log off for good.  It is all fun for me in one way or tuther, even when someone thinks I am a moron, or I think they are.

Exactly. It's called "being a relatively well-adjusted human being and not crying over things you can't change".



RCdc -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:23:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
It's all pretty much subjective.

Exactly; which means that it's not the actions taken that are the factor, but people's reactions to them. Most reasonably well-adjusted people would look at a large group of human beings and say to themselves “well the chances are I’ll find a few people in this crowd I really like, a few I can’t stand, and a great mass in the middle I'm not fussed about one way or the other”, and proceed on that basis. What the whiners do is effectively demand to be loved or agreed with across the board, and then pitch a fat one when they're not. Real life doesn't work that way, and therefore neither do forum interactions.

As a (fair weathered) biker I get this a lot, both online and IRL; there’s this “we’re a Brotherhood” attitude from a lot of people – the assumption, just because people share a hobby, or a “lifestyle” (or even a kink), that they're somehow therefore likely to be linked, socially or intellectually; it’s complete hogwash, and only sets the “believer” up for a fall. People are just that; people, and you relate to them as individuals, or as a social group. Just because you share one section of your life or interests with them doesn't make you instant bestest friends (though of course it does provide a shared topic for initial conversations), nor does it mean that, if you talk crap (or even if you don't), someone in the group isn't going to say “hang on, you're talking crap”. You can either take it on the chin, as part of the price of contributing to a wider community, and therefore having the chance to make friends (and maybe lovers) or you can run off and hide under Mummy’s skirts.

Life (including relationships and social interactions) can be difficult and challenging. Get over it.



I pretty much agree with you MrRF... up to the get over it thing. I mean, I'll happily say 'deal with it' which is the same thing ... but I think there is also an onus on you(generic) to accept the responsibilty that what you think or say will have an effect on someone and you might be hurtful. 
If we didn't believe that deep down, none of us would be here on a forum typing our words or telling people what we think - even face to face.  We would all have our mouths sown shut and our hands in mittens (ok... gimme a sec while I contemplate that rather delicious and sadistic image.........)








Ok... back now....[:D]



Jaybeee -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:24:53 AM)

The most surprising aspect of CM for me (both at the outset and still to this day) was/is the amount of prudery from people claiming to be fetishists. Several wildly divergent episodes come to mind, but the most striking of all is also the most common theme, ie turning up to a BDSM site and spouting unslavelike commentary about how you'd never "cause a child to ask her mommy, "What that lady is doing kneeling by that man?" regardless of what said man has ordered, is pretty much the pinnacle of self-delusion.



tazzygirl -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:29:04 AM)

Hmmm.. how is that self-delusion?



RCdc -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:29:12 AM)

Look I notice![:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

There is a line in a great old song that goes "Take what you want and leave the rest".  That is what I do on this site.  Hell, that is what I do in life most days.



Which is a brilliant bit of advice if you stick around long enough.

But if you are a newbie poster or someone considering doing their first post who is watching a so called 'troll' being ran out of town, you sometimes do not even get to that point.



RapierFugue -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:29:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
I pretty much agree with you MrRF... up to the get over it thing. I mean, I'll happily say 'deal with it' which is the same thing ... but I think there is also an onus on you(generic) to accept the responsibilty that what you think or say will have an effect on someone and you might be hurtful. 

Like I said, I don't generally say anything here I wouldn't to a person's face. I try to consider the feelings of others, as do all non-sociopathic people, but I can't second guess what they might find offensive or hurtful, nor can I fix what's wrong with them, if anything is, therefore I do my thing, they do theirs, and if they don't like me then that's not my problem or fault, but neither is it theirs; they are welcome to bung me on "Hide" in exactly the same way as they could simply walk away from me if we were having a conversation in a bar. And I am free to do the same.

What I do object to (and I realise these are polar opposites) is "piling on" (hence I tend to speak out against it) but also "victim mentality", or the assumption that everyone has an innate right to demand others listen to them. Again, as with people shouting at you in the street, you can shout back, or simply ignore them. The choice is yours, and theirs.



RapierFugue -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:30:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc
But if you are a newbie poster or someone considering doing their first post who is watching a so called 'troll' being ran out of town, you sometimes do not even get to that point.

Then that individual is too sensitive to survive anywhere for long, and will always end up wailing into their cocoa.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's how life is.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:32:13 AM)

@ RCdc - thanks! i ♥ fake lashes with a passion. haha ^_^

"When I say 'deal with it' that is more aimed at those who are in cliques (on the whole), not those being 'bullied'.
The times I see people moan about cliques, and then those say 'Im in no freaking clique'.... when they are -  and then go on to say 'cliques don't exist'.... when they do.  I'll accept your critisism - I'm not always good with words and sometimes use them inappropriately... maybe I should be say - Cliques exist and you are in it, accept it and be cool and happy."

-- i agree with you there; i've always found that the people who usually say "there are no cliques" are the ones who are in them and perpetrating the most cliquey behavior. =p it's ironic to me.

@ RapierFugue -- while i agree with you mostly, the word "whining" is bugging me. =p sometimes people label something "whining" when it isn't, because that is ALSO a derogatory term for an opinion they simply don't like, especially if it's an opinion about something they're doing or actively promoting.  it's the attitude you see with the people who screech at someone for trying to get a mob to stop ganging up on someone -- calling them a "savior" or a "white knight" in a disparaging way because they're actively disagreeing with mob behavior.
whining isn't a neutral word in our language anymore, and most things labeled "whines," really AREN'T whines the way people mean it today. =p there isn't anything wrong with pointing out something you don't like, raising attention to it, and attempting to change it.

the "hide" option is a great one to have, and yes -- it would be great if people used it!

i don't consider myself to have ever been a part of any clique; sometimes of my choosing, sometimes not. but i prefer to be that way because then my motives can be seen for what they really are, and not as some aspect of factionalism.




LaTigresse -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:33:43 AM)

It's funny RF, you touch on things that remind me of a thought process I was having the other day as I drove to work. At the time, I was thinking about a few people I know, and also myself and how I relate to people.

Some people make a great effort to please others it seems to me. Remembering birthdays, always trying to get gifts or make some sort of production, doing little things for others. The one person I was thinking of specifically, does it a lot, but my problem with it is that she expects reciprocation. God help you if you forget........aka the space cadets like me, end up on her shit list...........UNLESS she wants something. It is always obvious when she has something to gain. Myself, I give exactly as much as I want to give. What I give is from the heart, genuine, without any expectation or hope, other than I hope they enjoy whatever I give. If someone makes it something more, that is on them.

Then there are others that seem to proactively alienate others. One of my sister-in-laws comes to mind.

Most of us tend to fall somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately, we all have slightly different expectations of one another. Even just with behaviour and what to say, how to say it, when to say it, etc... What creates those expectations is soooooo varied and complex the possibility for offense to be taken is huge. In our physical lives, we tend to be a lot around people with similar backgrounds, therefor similar expectations. Online, not so much so.

Sometimes, I know I offend and/or alienate people because of the dramatically varied types of people I know and communicate with of regular basis. At work, with the guys and our customers, my style of communication is valued. With GD and my kids, they know me so well, they 'get me'. With the Iowa City lesbian crowd, there is so much weirdness, all it takes is one word to throw some of them into a tizzy. Some of my extended family are similar. Online it is a mixed bag.

As far as cliques..........bahhhhhhh. I've no patience or desire to figure that shit out. I am just going to be me......if some have a vision of that being cliqueish.....so be it. If some take offense.......so be it. I am so over trying to make everyone happy, comfortable, or feel welcome. I am not running a hospitality suite. I am not being paid to teach anyone anything or train anyone in anything. The reality is that...........I am here for ME. I am not here to do any 'community' a service. Much like in my physical life, I give exactly what I want, without any expectation of reciprocation and not because someone expects something of me. But just because it's what I want to do.

And quite frankly, if a new person comes on here and gets so offended/upset they run off crying.........good riddance. If some words typed by some random online stranger upsets them, it is my opinion they've got far bigger issues they need to deal with.



RapierFugue -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:34:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

The most surprising aspect of CM for me (both at the outset and still to this day) was/is the amount of prudery from people claiming to be fetishists. Several wildly divergent episodes come to mind, but the most striking of all is also the most common theme, ie turning up to a BDSM site and spouting unslavelike commentary about how you'd never "cause a child to ask her mommy, "What that lady is doing kneeling by that man?" regardless of what said man has ordered, is pretty much the pinnacle of self-delusion.

Everyone indulges in self-delusion; "you, me, them, everybody" ... it's a natural and human part of our psychological defence mechanisms.

If you think you don't then you're indulging in the worst self-delusion of them all ;)



RCdc -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:34:50 AM)

Again I can't disagree with you on the whole.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Again, as with people shouting at you in the street, you can shout back, or simply ignore them. The choice is yours, and theirs.


The only thing with this analagy though is that on the street... the moment can pass pretty quickly once you have ignored or walked away.
On a forum like this, even if you 'walk' from the thread, it sticks with you and remains - like a photograph.



barelynangel -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:34:55 AM)

i could care less if people have cliques, what i find amusing on CM message board is the bandwagon effect of same.  You see it many times when one of their friends decides that they want to tell someone off (and of course you see them rationalize this as the person who they are telling off MUST deserve it because well gee the telleroffer is really a very nice person and kind and sweet, so if they get to the point of telling someone off IT MUST BE the person they are telling off's fault for being an ass --- yeah narrissism at its best usually) they go and pat themselves on the back to their friends and then the friends wanna know where and THEY then justify why THEY are telling someone off in the same way as their friend.   That is what i call the narrisistic bandwagon effect that happens on this board  A LOT.  lol  Its like people think they are all that and a box of chips that them deciding to tell someone off MUST be the person's they are telling off's fault and they actually seek validation from their friends for telling someone off.  These same people speak of trainwrecks when THEY are actually the cause of a thread becoming a trainwreck but they don't see it or want to see it.

Its really an interesting and utterly astonishing thing to watch the mentality of these posters.  Also a big thing on this website nowadays is drawing conclusions with no actualy details given from a newcomer, and those conclusions are usually negative which then starts a bandwagon effect because other jumps on it to negatively tell the newcomer what an ass they are, when they really have no evidence of the sort.

This webiste HAS changed over the years.  There used to be people here who didn't pretty much allow this to happen because in threads like the ones that become trainwrecks and the regulars who think they are all that and a box of chips who feel telling newcomers off instead of either ignoring the thread or offering constructive insight based on their knowledge, those people stepped up with maturity and calm.   That is what is missing in many of the regulars on this board nowadays.  The people who used to be able to keep the thread in some sort of for lack of better word constructiveness simply by their posting have left CM BECAUSE of a lot of the BS that goes on now, and those who enjoy trainwrecks and tangenting threads for their own social interactions are left in more numbers than the others.

I also think too many people are way to sensitive on this site nowadays, they are here more for validation of their opinions and who they are by anonymous nicknames and their friends  than they are for discussion and debates of topics.  When i first got here many years ago, it was a discussion and debate board, not a social board where friends decide to validate one another. 

Now that being said, i also believe newcomers to the message boards hold some responsibility to approach the boards with a concept of common sense.  I have no clue what the FAQ's say outside of the Gorean forum, but the one in the Gorean forum has various threads for people to browse through and get a feeling of what the forum's views are on a basic level about what Gor is, what people think its not, where to go to find the books etc etc etc.  Perhaps that may be a beneficial thing for the other forums to do, pull threads that speak to newcomers and put them in a centralized location with threads of various topics that occur over and over again. Or if CM could allow people to hide THREADS, because it is hard to walk away from BS that you may be involved in for some people.  But being able to hide a thread would allow people to just hide it and they won't see it anymore.

I don't send people to this message board anymore, because its just not the same board it used to be full of information and active and interesting discussions.  Its a social board with the discussions and debates being secondary.  I enjoy some of the discussion and debates sometimes i participate in what i do know about and many times i just watch those that actually get to take place, i don't know much about BDSM so at times i read through the BS and see if i can find something that helps me understand a lot of views my head just can't wrap around.  But many times its too much effort because of all the BS and validation seeking.  To me, sending a newcomer here would be like thrusting them into a boiling pot of mud saying okay find the piece of string that starts a puzzle for them to follow.  Long time ago, i did use to recommend the boards to people.

angel



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Is CM really good for newcomers? (1/8/2011 6:37:46 AM)

^^^^^^ 100% agreement barelynangel



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