Raising the debt ceiling (Full Version)

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truckinslave -> Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 1:58:15 PM)

Many of you are probably already aware that there is a current debate over whether or not to raise the debt ceiling from its current figure of 14.3 trillion.
Senator Jim DeMint is one of those looking forward to the fight:

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies."

Senator DeMint is right. Find a way to reduce spending, whatever it might be.



wittynamehere -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 2:01:57 PM)

The course is mathematically certain to anyone willing to spend 2 minutes to do the calculations: the USA must continue to print money out of thin air, or default on their loans. In other words, they're going to keep inflating the money supply.



KenDckey -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 3:46:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110106/ap_on_re_us/us_pentagon_budget_cuts;_ylt=AkqzPZqLKQHq7SwiCeH77Mp34T0D;_ylu=X3oDMTJvY2dzNWFpBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMTA2L3VzX3BlbnRhZ29uX2J1ZGdldF9jdXRzBGNwb3MDMwRwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNnYXRlc3BsYW5zdG8-

Under pressure to rein in deficit spending, the White House has told the Defense Department it must cut $78 billion from its budget plan covering 2012 through 2016. Gates agreed, but insisted that topline reductions not happen until 2015 when presumably the war in Afghanistan will end. Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said that it plans to take control of security in its country by the end of 2014. After that, the plan would be to let go of 27,000 Army soldiers and up to 20,000 Marines to save as much as $6 billion. Mullen called the reduction in force size modest and "well within the risk envelope." Gates said he expects to save some $7 billion by reforming the military's health care system known as Tricare, including an increase to premiums paid by military families.


I definately see an issue of increased in Tricare.    I currently have to pay $101 a month in preiums, $12 co-pay per visit, and the standard 20% of hospital care plus scripts ($3, $9 or $22 depending on what it is) and a $1000 limit on dental care.   Retirement pay raises are the same as Social Security and tied to the CPI.  

Now if this holds true then I can forsee some issues being brought up about social security.    Not exactly sure what they will be, but I can see a reduction at a minimum (even tho it is fully funded but the govt spent the money elsewhere so let's take something away from old people who generally have less discretionary funds than their youngers)



DomKen -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 3:52:49 PM)

This is really simple. If the debt ceiling isn't raised then the government will have to shut down completely or default on all the outstanding debt. Either course is disastrous.



servantforuse -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 4:19:46 PM)

Maybe we should shut down the government.



DomKen -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 5:07:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Maybe we should shut down the government.

We're not talking about a non essential services shutdown like previous budget battles but a complete shutdown. No military, no law enforcement, no postal service, no customs or immigration enforcement, no federal reserve (which would mean no banks could clear checks or direct deposits from other banks).



pogo4pres -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 5:25:44 PM)

Ken a total shut down that you speak of, would probably not happen, but if it did there would be world wide consequences. 

OPEC would be the first of our problems as they would immediately convert to Euro's for trading, which would lead to a German pre-WWII like hyper inflation condition here at home.  Then the problems would magnify as many nations would call in the debt of ours they have purchased to keep us afloat. 

The unintended consequence of all that would mean a certain selling of "assets" to meet the collection demand.  By "assets" I refer to assorted American states.  It would get very ugly in a hurry.


Incredulously,
Some Knucklehead in NJ




AnimusRex -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 6:11:53 PM)

I see that some "fiscal conservative" is going on again about spending....So I will post this YET AGAIN and give the "fiscal conservatives" a chance to actually put their money where their mouth is- by telling us where they would cut spending:

1. Debt Service 400 Billion
2. Medicare- 600 Billion
3. Social Security- 1 Trillion
4. Defense- 1 Trillion
5. Every other damn thing the Gov't does- 500 Billion
Total= 3.5 Trillion

Income- about 2.1 Trillion (including the 1 Trillion from Social Security payroll tax)

Deficit- 1.4 Trillion

So here you go- feel free to fill in the blanks with what you, as a jenuwine "fiscal conservative" would like these numbers to be:
1. Debt Service ________
2. Medicare- _______
3. Social Security- ______
4. Defense- _____
5. Every other damn thing the Gov't does- _______

Total= _______


Income- about 2.1 Trillion (including the 1 Trillion from Social Security payroll tax)

Deficit- _______


Please- seriously- take me to school- show me up publicly, and lay out the Conservative budget, that balances the bdget without raising taxes- and hey, you don't even need to do your own homework- just cruise conservative sites like NRO Online or Redstate or Stormfront or Sarah Palin's Facebook page or what have you and see the brilliant budget plans they have detailed.


Oh, and for your entertainment while you educate me-
Here is Bruce Bartlett, one of Ronald Reagan's advisors, commenting on the issue of the debt ceiling. Don't let the title give away his opinion- "It is the most monumental insanity"



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 8:54:51 PM)

Debt service $0
Medicare $400 bil
Social Security $700 bil
Defense $500 bil
Everything else $ 300 bil

That's $1.9 trillion. DO IT ! Do it soon or let the hammer fall down. Zero for debt service ? The hell I say ? What do you think is going to happen when the dollar isn't worth shit to anyone else ? The day is coming.

Keynes was credited with saying "In the long run we are all dead". There is some debate as to the validity of that claim, but who cares ? That is exactly what is happening, this is how they think. If you're 60 in 2010, it takes rare qualities to think of the well being of the country fifty years in the future, especially when you don't care about it now. Well that's our government folks.

T



Real0ne -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 9:07:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is really simple. If the debt ceiling isn't raised then the government will have to shut down completely or default on all the outstanding debt. Either course is disastrous.


how about we go into their cafr funds and grab up the trillions they stole from us by writing tickets for jwalking and the revenue nazis tazering people on traffic stops?  Think that will help get us over the hump?



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/6/2011 9:34:51 PM)

Of all people Real you should know that they don't get to keep most of that fine money, it is forwarded to a "fund". Suppose that might have something to do with the fact that last time I was in court the costs came to $932 ?

T



Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 6:33:06 AM)

quote:

Zero for debt service ? The hell I say ? What do you think is going to happen when the dollar isn't worth shit to anyone else ? The day is coming.


You are nuts.

The U.S. has never defaulted, and doing so would be a worldwide catastrophe economically.

When the dollar isn't worth shit? Huh? It's still hard currency, and firmly so. Our GDP is the highest in the world--twice that of China's even. We have a high structural deficit right now (no thanks to unfunded tax cuts and two long term invasions), but it's not as high relative to GDP as in WWII, and we are still a growing economy (we've just decided to let the upper class grow it themselves, giving them the funds, while the rest of the nation remains stagnant).

The world economy will completely collapse before the U.S. economy does.



truckinslave -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 6:33:53 AM)

<Sigh>

The quotation is actually from then-Senator 0bama0, who voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006.

And missed two other votes to do so.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 7:22:35 AM)

If our GDP is twice that of China's we must have a huge trade surplus with them, since they are more populated.

If the USD is such a strong currency, then why would we care if all the countries with which we trade switch to euros ? Let them. It would be a mistake on their part right ? Send all those USDs back and give our mints a break.

Our economy is that good eh ? I don't even hear politicians making that claim.

T



DarkSteven -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 7:44:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is really simple. If the debt ceiling isn't raised then the government will have to shut down completely or default on all the outstanding debt. Either course is disastrous.


You are correct in the short term.  But making lots of preachy statements about how this is an issue - and then simply voting to go into the hole more - is not the solution. 

The problem is that after raising the ceiling, it looks like the problem miraculously went away.  And it didn't.

Obama has begun tentative moves to fix it.  He appointed a bipartisan commission that made a report that nobody can live with.  And he froze fed workers' pay.  Once he starts making cuts in fed workers' numbers and compensation packages to make the government more aligned with the private sector, I'll believe that the problem is getting addressed.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 7:58:24 AM)

That would help of course, but they should start at the top. What the politicians give themselves in the way of entitlements is obscene. What they pay for almost anything is obscene, the proverbial $700 toilet seat.

However I doubt it will be enough. There will soon be cities and states to bail out, where is that going to come from ? It's to the point now that serious tightening of the belt so to speak might, just might maintain the status quo. For how long ?

T



Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 10:54:28 AM)

quote:

If our GDP is twice that of China's we must have a huge trade surplus with them, since they are more populated.


Why? That makes no sense.

Consumer spending, Business Investment, Government spending, Net Exports. It's just math, reflecting the value of the goods produced (and sold). You can figure it from the production side too, if you care too.

We produce and sell much more--globally and domestically. Their population (much of which is poor) is irrelevant.

Also...there's a world of range between an excellent economy and one on the verge of collapse. Your reactions assume one the poles, ignoring the vast reality in the middle.






Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 10:56:12 AM)

quote:

f the USD is such a strong currency, then why would we care if all the countries with which we trade switch to euros ?


This makes no sense either; the euro is also hard currency.

By the way, the EU holds more of our debt than China. Process that for a while.

And the bulk of that debt is held here, domestically, by U.S. citizens.
(another reason defaulting would be a dumb thing to do)



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 12:44:36 PM)

The debt limit debate is going to be an interesting game of chicken. There is no question it will be (and must be raised). The question is can the GOP hold it up in exchange for spending cuts (risking being accused of shutting down the government) or does Obama hold firm (risking losing what little credibility he has about being willing to cut spending).

Like most other issues, huge 2012 campaign sound bites are in play.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 2:24:21 PM)

Unfortunately 2012 doesn't mean shit. Even if we got someone in there with real backbone, true grit, we are on a downward spiral.

There are place where you drive across this country where you would swear you are going uphill, but it is an optical illusion, you are actually going downhill. People with "seats" want to maintain their seats so they maintain the illusion. I don't fall for it. Some do, in fact many do. And as bad as things are with degreed people applying for jobs that should be filled by highschool kids, there is a segment of the proletarian population whose incomes are stable or maybe even growing. They will not believe until it comes to them.

It's not all doom and gloom. There is nothing we can do to stop it either, but if there is a hurricane coming you can't stop that either. It doesn't get any better if you ignore the fact that it is coming.

Prepare.

T



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