RE: Raising the debt ceiling (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 2:58:06 PM)

quote:

we are on a downward spiral.

There is nothing we can do to stop it either


Again, nonsense. Nothing about this is inevitable, and nothing indicates it's a spiral.



Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 3:00:13 PM)

quote:

The debt limit debate is going to be an interesting game of chicken. There is no question it will be (and must be raised). The question is can the GOP hold it up in exchange for spending cuts (risking being accused of shutting down the government) or does Obama hold firm (risking losing what little credibility he has about being willing to cut spending).

Like most other issues, huge 2012 campaign sound bites are in play.


Precisely.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 3:22:37 PM)

I'd like to know what you do for a living Mm.

T



AnimusRex -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 6:28:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Debt service $0
Medicare $400 bil
Social Security $700 bil
Defense $500 bil
Everything else $ 300 bil



Well, T, I give you credit for taking a whack at it; this is something even the Republicans in the House have been incapable, of, that is, saying what they want to cut or not.

Of course your proposal sounds a bit whackadoodle, but in a world where Senate candidates talk about paying doctors with chickens, I guess you are in fine company.

Still waiting to be taken to school by one of the "fiscal conservatives".



TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 9:52:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I'd like to know what you do for a living Mm.

T


Something to do with music, my divine wisdom tells me.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 10:27:35 PM)

Look no matter what you and AR think, this is not fucking funny. Mark my words for the days you rue your bliss of today. You think if you make a half mil a year it ain't coming to you ? It is, it's just delayed a few weeks or so.

There are already tourist traps in the world the will not accept USDs, look at the relative value, but then look at what it takes to maintain that FAKE value. D E B T. Lots of it. In a couple of years debt service will exceed operational costs.

Mm refers to it as a "structural debt". Well there is no difference between debts. Ask any credit company. I have already played the game with those people and won, and the way I did it was to give no indication of the stress. Everything was hunky dory. As a result I picked up another couple ten grand. That is what this country is doing.

The supposed leaders, like in communist sytems, think they are leaders because they have the power to take from one and give to another. And the fucking peons see leaders where only thieves exist. And they VOTE !

Leeme tell y'all something, lowlifes vote all the time. The rich vote for people who promose tax breaks for the rich, they do not concern themselves with the welfare of the country. Middle class proletarians vote for those who proimise tax cuts for their ilk. Welfare dregs vote for those who promise more for them.

Any muthafuker in here who says different is a bald faced liar. You vote for your own best interests and guess what, you got what you asked for. Now reap what you have sown, because in soon enough time I will be dead, and others must live on to suffer the consequence of our folly. But it is not mine. I have never and nor shall I ever vote unless they come up with a candidate from us, the people. Not Harvard or Yale, how about a highschool dropout who built a substantuial business ? How abotu a true leader, not a sellout, a mere panderer of votes ? Where are these people ?

Whoever wants to believe their bullshit about how good things are, just stick around.

T



TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 10:51:23 PM)

A two-party system, Term.

That's what dictates the ilk of "leaders" we decide between.



Edwynn -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/7/2011 11:52:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Many of you are probably already aware that there is a current debate over whether or not to raise the debt ceiling from its current figure of 14.3 trillion.
Senator Jim DeMint is one of those looking forward to the fight:

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies."

Senator DeMint is right. Find a way to reduce spending, whatever it might be.



I agree!!! Just like you, I was only half awake when our  government drove the country into interminable obligations to the oil industry to the tune of  $9 trillion thus far in regards their middle east concerns,  and to the extent of $3 trillion  invested tax dollars to the financial industries.

But now that we have come out of our slumber and wiped our eyes, ...

its time to put a lid on this thing!

Your perspicacity is well noted here, sir!


Find a way to reduce spending, after trillions of tax dollars have flown out the door to the interested parties, sorry about the shuttered doors of elementary schools and laid off teachers.

As soon as you come further out of your slumber, be introduced to the fact that more schools are being closed by the day, as obtained from prior cuts.

But record setting profits must be derived, maintained, and further expanded by whatever method.






popeye1250 -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/8/2011 12:40:06 AM)

One thing they need to do is to place all social security funds into a "lockbox" like has been talked about in years past.
LBJ started all that "borrowing" against it in the mid 1960's and I doubt any of it has been repaid.
There's plenty of room to make plenty of cuts in govt. and end things.
Our govt is involved in all kinds of things that they simply shouldn't be involved in.
If they don't cut spending by a lot then eventually we're going to have to enter bankruptcy; "hold govt bonds, you get 10%, China, we owe you six trillion, you get 10%, bailiff, clear the courtroom."
I'd cut defense, six carrier battle groups instead of 12, put the six carriers in mothballs in case they're needed later, two army divisions, three af flights or whatever they call them, close bases in japan and s, korea, they've been there for *60* years for cripe sakes! Take those 60,000 Troops and put them on the Mexican border where we need them. Close one or two bases in germany.
Close the dept's of energy, education and epa and a bunch of other useless agencies, end all foreign aid, get rid of all illegal aliens who are now costing us $114 billion dollars per year, the Troops home from s. korea and japan can help out there, cut the state dept in half, no more embasseys in third or fourth world countries that serve only as outposts for foreign aid and immigration to the U.S., end all immigration for ten years, it shouldn't cost the taxpayers anything for letting people into the country legally.
That's off the top of my head but I'm sure I could come up with lots more.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/8/2011 12:44:22 AM)

Good point Ed, but not a good analogy. The schools are more disfunctional than a Caddilac with computer problems that has just been run over by a train.

T



MrRodgers -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/8/2011 8:11:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

Ken a total shut down that you speak of, would probably not happen, but if it did there would be world wide consequences. 

OPEC would be the first of our problems as they would immediately convert to Euro's for trading, which would lead to a German pre-WWII like hyper inflation condition here at home.  Then the problems would magnify as many nations would call in the debt of ours they have purchased to keep us afloat. 

The unintended consequence of all that would mean a certain selling of "assets" to meet the collection demand.  By "assets" I refer to assorted American states.  It would get very ugly in a hurry.


Incredulously,
Some Knucklehead in NJ

Let me use this to post some thoughts. First of all, using the Euro would be self defeating for our debt holders as they would see there holdings go down in value immediately...and not all that much because by far, most US debt holders understand it is the most secure among all nations. Also, this would in no way set-up hyper-inflation and certainly nothing even close to Weimar Germany.

Second, nations cannot call in our US treasury bills. Either they hold to maturity or sell them. There will be plenty of buyers even though yes, future debt would require a lower price and thus higher interest rates. This country sold and managed quite well when treasuries went to I think it was about 11%-12% in the early 80's.

The selling would pick up and prices would fall and that's too fucking bad. That's life when you rely on cheap credit. If investors don't like it they can do something actually very strange for the capitalist...use his own fucking money, i.e., no debt (or debt service) to worry about.

As for this OP, watch the outlandish hypocrisy by the repubs. They started two wars and passed a drug subsidy without paying for them, cut taxes to corporations and individuals while increasing spending resulting in-eight (8)...that's 8 times kinkroids...repubs raised the debt ceiling. Also passed the largest Transportation bill in our history of some $500+ Billion with I think it was 15,000, that's Fifteen Thousand Earmarks (pork) spending...NOT fully paid for.



Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/8/2011 9:05:03 PM)

quote:

Mm refers to it as a "structural debt". Well there is no difference between debts. Ask any credit company.


Of course there is.

While you're talking about individuals now instead of government, before issuing credit, and before deciding how much credit, they will look at your income and current financial commitments--essentially, your structural debt.

Now, the money you owe from last night's poker game--that's debt, but not part of your structural debt.

You could stop playing poker to relieve that debt. But your mortgage payment is, in the short run, your mortgage payment, and part of your structural debt.



truckinslave -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/8/2011 10:40:52 PM)

"The schools" should not be supported by federak money. Period.

Just typical liberal deflection from Ed



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/9/2011 12:36:04 AM)

Actually yes. The first thing on the chopping block should be the dept. of education. The feds do not belong in the schools, however it would be reasonable for them to set standards for the standard high school diploma to ensure that they are not issued unless the graduate has a certain level of basic competency.

However like many federal programs, it seems to work in reverse. The ATF should be disbanded preiod, in fact there was some noise being made about that years ago. If there are three things that belong under local control rather than federal they are alcohol, tobacco and firearms. the feds stick their fucking nose into everything, and I am not only all for bloodying it, but even cutting it off to spite it's face. I don't care what you think about Waco, but those people did not cross state lines, in fact got along with the locals just fine. When the feds came to burn them, they actually called the sherriff ! What the fuck were the feds doibng there other than trying to teach us who is boss ? What are we still doing in Germany ? What is that foreign aid for ? I know what it's for. Washington understands one thing - bribes. Money talks and bullshit walks. That money influences governments, and props up friendly ones to the dismay of unfriendly ones. When the fuck will come the time when they just leave people alone ?

Raise the debt cieling ! MORE MORE MORE ! Make it $750 quintrillion ! Do I hear 800 ? That's what you all just don't understand. I have sifted 50 years of information and found this planet to be unacceptable. Let it fall, let it bleed, let it die. I welcome it. Mind you if a foreign invader were to attack I will be side by side to defend this country. But when it comes to destroying ourselves I think we should just get on with it finally.

Know why ? Because after the fall, those who are left will pick themselves up and maybe do things right the next time around.

T



BenevolentM -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/9/2011 9:51:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

1. Debt Service 400 Billion
2. Medicare- 600 Billion
3. Social Security- 1 Trillion
4. Defense- 1 Trillion
5. Every other damn thing the Gov't does- 500 Billion
Total= 3.5 Trillion

Income- about 2.1 Trillion (including the 1 Trillion from Social Security payroll tax)

Deficit- 1.4 Trillion


Unfortunately, something doesn't add up here. On the face of it the numbers add up, but divide 1.4 by 2.1. You get 666. The quotient is 66.6% percent. I'm rounding down. Since the Federal government is as large as it is, if the math is right inflation would be dramatically higher than it is. The figures don't add up. Ask a physicist. Do these numbers add up? Perhaps we are siphoning energy from hell's wheel. I don't know the answer. All I can say is that it is dam curious.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/9/2011 10:44:11 PM)

"While you're talking about individuals now instead of government, before issuing credit, and before deciding how much credit, they will look at your income and current financial commitments--essentially, your structural debt. "

OK, you want to use the words that way fine. Then it is all structural debt. It doesn't matter if it is rent and utilities or some other current debt service. The bottom line is you have income. Whatever adjective is applied to debt is irrelevant. The difference is then basic needs presumed by family size and so forth, and after it is all paid what is left is disposable income.

It doesn't matter if you save the money, spend it, overspend it and create more debt service. You will dispose of it somehow after all the bills are paid.

Now comes the point. It matters not the enormousity of the federal budget. Has nothing to do with one simple fact :

There is no disposable income, in fact if they have to borrow to keep the doors open, they effectively have a negative disposable income. Kapeesh ?

It would take some pretty damn fuzzy logic to escape that fact.

T



jj292 -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/10/2011 12:47:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Unfortunately 2012 doesn't mean shit. Even if we got someone in there with real backbone, true grit, we are on a downward spiral.

There are place where you drive across this country where you would swear you are going uphill, but it is an optical illusion, you are actually going downhill. People with "seats" want to maintain their seats so they maintain the illusion. I don't fall for it. Some do, in fact many do. And as bad as things are with degreed people applying for jobs that should be filled by highschool kids, there is a segment of the proletarian population whose incomes are stable or maybe even growing. They will not believe until it comes to them.

It's not all doom and gloom. There is nothing we can do to stop it either, but if there is a hurricane coming you can't stop that either. It doesn't get any better if you ignore the fact that it is coming.

Prepare.

T



Yeah, there is something that can be done. It's called slashing the budget to balance the books. It's going to hurt. Some people are going to lose their jobs. A lot of social services will be lost. Economy may even go into a very hard depression. But it's better than a total collapse of the economy which will eventually happen if the country stays on the same course.



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/10/2011 12:58:31 AM)

So then do you agree that it would be better to default voluntarily, earlier, rather than to wait for the hammer to come down ?

Yes we will be dead in the long run, and it is my view that we, as well as those before us are/were cowards. Unable to face the consequences of their/our own folly, bestowing those consequences on those to come after us.

Where I come from, that is wrong.

T



Musicmystery -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/10/2011 8:28:02 AM)

quote:

it would be better to default voluntarily, earlier, rather than to wait for the hammer to come down ?


We are absolutely nowhere near defaulting, not even in the long run.

Again, we are 1/5 of the world's economy. Granted, we can't continue this course, and no one disputes that, but it's a tightening of our budget, not a financial crisis in the Ireland/Greek sense (where the problems and their causes were/are completely different).



Termyn8or -> RE: Raising the debt ceiling (1/10/2011 12:46:22 PM)

Couple of years ago I was nowhere near defaulting. I subsequently defaulted and it's the best thing I ever did. Defaulting by choice saved me about ten grand in interest. Defaulting say - next Wednesday would screw everyhing up of course. But then there is an extra $400 billion in the "bank".

What is nowhere near defaulting anyway ? Ten years, twenty, thirty ? Ten years at the current level of debt service would be $4 trillion, how much was that annual budget again ?

Is it better to jump off a burning boat with a life preserver, or to fall overboard ?

T



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