RE: Discrimination in Public Places....

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (Full Version)

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Moloch -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 10:33:01 AM)
The mall is private property, so you have to play by the owners rules, so Im gonna say "Forcing our life on others in public is a no no" Do you think its ok for me to walk naked through the mall scratching my left nut with a fork? Im pretty sure there is "public lewdness" laws that say that its not ok. If you disagree then you just keep in mind that most likeley you will be tried by 12 vanilla jurors.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 10:46:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch The mall is private property, so you have to play by the owners rules, so Im gonna say "Forcing our life on others in public is a no no" Do you think its ok for me to walk naked through the mall scratching my left nut with a fork? Im pretty sure there is "public lewdness" laws that say that its not ok. If you disagree then you just keep in mind that most likeley you will be tried by 12 vanilla jurors. Keep in mind there's a large difference between: - what I think is ok for "anyone" to do - what I think is right and best for ME to do - what the law says

MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 10:57:48 AM)
Oh please! So the people who disagree with it are forcing their views on others but the people leading each other around on leashes weren't forcing their view on others? Let's quit being so coy about this - it's not about "expressing" yourself. The bottom line is that this is not considered acceptable behaviour in public. Period. Anyone with half a brain knows that. IMO, these people were doing the same thing that teenagers do with PDA's and cussing loudly - trying to get attention and they got it! If they ended up getting attention they didn't like well that's a real bummer, ain't it? IMO, it's incredibly immature to insist that others tolerate things that we know darn well are outside societal norms because we feel we have some birthright to "express" ourselves. If I want to express that side of myself I go to a play party or a club. It's not about saving the children (or adults for that matter) from seeing something that might be offensive it's about understanding societal conventions and norms and being a mature adult and behaving appropriately for the venue. We seem to want all this tolearance and respect yet we don't give much of it in return. Only the truly immature would consider that stifling themselves. Yeesh. quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl What i think people are doing here.. is forcing THEIR VIEWS on others. What you feel is right or wrong for you (which doesnt make it right or wrong for anyone else) makes it okay to impose it upon others. What ever happened to tolerance, acceptance? Tho i suppose its okay to accept your own views and not others? Oh wait.. lets just be untolerant and unaccepting off ourselves.. yet be so for other people? Ummmm well....

foxnotinsox -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 10:57:56 AM)
quote: The mall is private property, so you have to play by the owners rules, so Im gonna say "Forcing our life on others in public is a no no" OK ... I'm gonna play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate heheh Where is the rule that one cannot wear a leash a collar at the mall? And, if indeed there is such a rule for this particular mall, why are there stores in the mall which cater to this kind of dress? It smacks to me of double standards .. wherein they will take your money but gosh heaven forbid that you ever show up there ... Personally, I would not leave until it was shown exactly which rules I was breaking .. and if it could not be shown, I would have the security guard's ass on a platter..

Moloch -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 10:58:45 AM)
Makes a metal note

MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:04:40 AM)
LOL! That was my thought exactly [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Proprietrix, I always love your posts...but apparently all the kids you know are satisfied with just one answer!!! Why does she want to? Is she going for a walk? Can I wear a leash? Can I leash my brother? Does Daddy put YOU on a leash? Why? Why not? Can I wear a leash to school? Why does she want to be on a leash again? Why is she walking behind him instead of next to him? Why is her head down? Why? Why? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? LOL [:D]

Mercnbeth -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:05:53 AM)
Location - Location - Location Jacksonville, NC gets you kicked out of the mall. Most area's in LA? You'd be asked; "Where did you get that interesting necklace?" However you would be kicked out if you lit up a cigarette. It's a lot more difficult to determine who's "lifestyle" and who's "fashion" out here. Walk down the street on any given day in Venice Beach, or Melrose and you'll see quite a few collars with and without leashes. There is one couple in LA who never leaves home without her being at the end of a leash. It doesn't raise an eyebrow. Of course again - it's LA. If challenged they can always say they are "method actors" rehearsing for a part. Regarding "Dom Depot" I think most of the employees don't refer to it under it's real name anymore. When you go to the check out counter with a few hundred feet of rope, chain in various colors, heavy duty swivel hooks, quick release clamps, maybe a few pieces of wood, they don't think you have heavy hanging plants or that you are building a dog house. Check out some of the shopping "couples". How many woman are really that concerned about the color of rope? The observing trained eye can watch some of these couples and smile knowingly. Hell, in Jacksonville, NC 45 years ago they had segregated drinking fountains; and if you walked down the street with a bikini top you could get arrested. Maybe these good folks were attempting to be the lifestyle version of Rosa Parks.

OnyxGoddess -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:11:36 AM)
*Maybe i'm a little late on the subject butttttt.....* seems there really was no harm there. If a person can walk around with a million and one piercings in their face, chains all over their necks, a million and one rings on all thier fingers, in shorts/skirts that show their almost bare ass, or boobs that look like they are about to burst out of thier shirts WHY should a person who is dressed with a collar on thier neck be kicked out? *As long as they weren't NUDE or doing any extreme play things i don't see the issue other than a few peoples discomfort.* *Oh...and in the mall here you can bring your pet to the mall...you just have to be carrying it or have it on a really short leash.*

Proprietrix -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:28:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Proprietrix, I always love your posts...but apparently all the kids you know are satisfied with just one answer!!! Why does she want to? Is she going for a walk? Can I wear a leash? Can I leash my brother? Does Daddy put YOU on a leash? Why? Why not? Can I wear a leash to school? Why does she want to be on a leash again? Why is she walking behind him instead of next to him? Why is her head down? Why? Why? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? LOL [:D] The endless strain of "why" is going to come up over any situation though, not just a leash in public. I would go about explaining a leash the same way I'd explain "why the bank teller lady wears a flower on her shirt" or "why that woman in the robes has a ruby in her forehead" or "why that man is missing an arm". Sometimes the answer is just "I don't know." A child can ask me all day long why the sky is blue, but until they are old enough to handle the scientific concepts behind it, they have to be content with "I don't know" or "You'll understand when you're older" or "Because people like it that way." The "why" game is played by kids on any topic. How a parent chooses to answer is at their own discretion. I just feel expecting the world to conform to a parent's personal dress-code is lazy parenting. If a parent isn't prepared to explain why people dress differently than one another to their child, they might rethink taking said child in public in the first place.

nikaa -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:33:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Location - Location - Location Jacksonville, NC gets you kicked out of the mall. Most area's in LA? You'd be asked; "Where did you get that interesting necklace?" However you would be kicked out if you lit up a cigarette. It's a lot more difficult to determine who's "lifestyle" and who's "fashion" out here. Walk down the street on any given day in Venice Beach, or Melrose and you'll see quite a few collars with and without leashes. There is one couple in LA who never leaves home without her being at the end of a leash. It doesn't raise an eyebrow. Of course again - it's LA. If challenged they can always say they are "method actors" rehearsing for a part. Regarding "Dom Depot" I think most of the employees don't refer to it under it's real name anymore. When you go to the check out counter with a few hundred feet of rope, chain in various colors, heavy duty swivel hooks, quick release clamps, maybe a few pieces of wood, they don't think you have heavy hanging plants or that you are building a dog house. Check out some of the shopping "couples". How many woman are really that concerned about the color of rope? The observing trained eye can watch some of these couples and smile knowingly. Hell, in Jacksonville, NC 45 years ago they had segregated drinking fountains; and if you walked down the street with a bikini top you could get arrested. Maybe these good folks were attempting to be the lifestyle version of Rosa Parks. That was exactly my point. When I worked as a subsitute teacher in central Central Califonia many of the students at the local high school wore collars daily. Some even would bring leashes one girl used to have it attached to the collar around her neck and hold the other end herself. No, one said a word. Even in the little town I live in now, I often see people wondering about in collars. Do I think all these people are involved in the bdsm lifestyle? Heck, no. As far as someone being offended by it. Well I am am more offended by a couple gropping and deep throating themselves in public in eye shot of my kids. I am more offended by that lady with the skirt that doesn't even cover her goods up. I am more offended by the panhandlers that hit me up as I walk down the street. I am more offended by the people that come knocking on my door with wanting to share their religious beleives. Yes, this was private property. Yes, there are general rules that apply. However, like someone else brought up I do not see what rule of a mall they where violating. In my opinion the same people could go back on another day and not get that reaction from security. Sounds to me like someone was on a power trip. I personally would have asked to speak the either the head of security or mall management. Espeically if all they where doing was sittingin the food court after entering the mall and ordering food. Nika{Phoenix}

mistoferin -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:39:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nikaa However, like someone else brought up I do not see what rule of a mall they where violating. Nika{Phoenix} There doesn't have to be a rule broken. It's a privately owned business. They have the right to refuse service to anyone...and they don't need a reason.

MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:40:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nikaa That was exactly my point. When I worked as a subsitute teacher in central Central Califonia many of the students at the local high school wore collars daily. Some even would bring leashes one girl used to have it attached to the collar around her neck and hold the other end herself. No, one said a word. And if a teacher came to school dressed like that?

Proprietrix -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:42:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito Let's quit being so coy about this - it's not about "expressing" yourself. I would argue that it precisely IS about expressing yourself. When we get dressed to go out and about the town, we do indeed dress to express ourselves. We talk to express ourselves. We use certain body language to express ourselves. We wear certain jewelry to express ourselves. Everything we do that affects our interactions with others, is an expression of ourselves. I don't dress like a clown because none of my identity is about being a clown. I don't dress as a prep, because I don't identify as one. I don't dress like a gypsy, because I don't identify as one. If people began dressing and displaying themselves in a manner that didn't express who they are, it would either become a bland world at best, and confusing as hell at worst.

kittensmailbox -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:48:30 AM)
i myself scream it from the rooftop, i could careless who knows....

Mercnbeth -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 11:54:32 AM)
quote: erin: There doesn't have to be a rule broken. It's a privately owned business. They have the right to refuse service to anyone...and they don't need a reason. Actually they'd have to have a stated public policy specific to the issue. For instance, you see "no shoes - no service" in restaurants. But without it, you can kick anyone out; but you may be sued for it. Then you'll have to prove a public decency law was violated. Want to try to defend or even define "public decency"? What of leashed kids, kept that way so they aren't stolen or run off? How do they know the person on the leash doesn't have adult ADD? You could or would "win" the suit, but in the US, it would still cost you tens of thousands of dollars. My guess if the people challenged the removal they would have won - even in Jacksonville, NC. I'd further be confident that while escorted out, a few lawyers would run to them to hand them their card willing to take the case on a contingency. A smart manager of the mall would respond to the attorney letter with an apology, a $100 mall gift certificate, and advise the lawyer that the security guard has been suspended. quote: Ms Incognito: And if a teacher came to school dressed like that? A tenured teacher? What do you think? See above lawyer reference and add to it the teacher's union.

nikaa -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 12:08:40 PM)
I found this article that rather intersting and in my eyes has alot to do this this situation. Could this fall under discrimination? This article is on the topic of private ownership, public accomidations, individual rights, and civil rights. As someone who owned a business I think as business owners we have to be careful about who we "ask" to leave our premises and why. http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/article_content/article13721.html As far as what would the schools I subbed at say to a teacher dressed in "goth" attire?There is a difference there in my eyes. One is acting a professional and one is a student. Any time we step into a "professional" or work setting we have standards of dress. Unless a school has adress code either conservative (uniform) or liberal (i.e w/ your arms down at your side your skirts have to be at least to you finger tip). The schools that I worked in some teachers wore jeans and t-shirts while others whore slacks and button up shirts. I have seen teachers with punk hair styles, one of the first subs Iever used when I was ass. director of a pre-k had bright pink hair with a mohawk that stood up a good 5 inches and peircings. I think it can make it harder to be accepted in "professional" settings and atmosphers but it done. And I agree with mercnbeth IF that is the ONLY reason for firing someone especially a teacher be prepared for backlash from the teachers union and perhaps civil attorneys. Blessed Be, Nika{Phoenix}

OnyxGoddess -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 12:15:08 PM)
you know...speaking of add...what about those CHILD LEASH things? seems ok to treat your child like an animal and lead them around on a leash so why shouldn't it be ok for consenting adults to do the same? i thought that there had to be some kind of posted policy for the public to read about dress codes. And like someone else said this case screams of double standard because half the stores in the mall sell the very products they were using. Perhaps it is as MercknBeth said...it's all about location. I should do that this weekend...see if i get kicked out! LOL.

Wulfchyld -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 12:19:06 PM)
Addressing the Child Leash thing. Foresight makes it a wonderful purchase. Hindsight will devastate you. Loki

nikaa -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 12:25:22 PM)
My 8 yr old son has no conscept of strangers or appropriate or inapproriate behavior. I remember when we were in Vegas my daughter wanted to see the Pirate show so we were talking down the strip. My son would reach out and grab at hands that where close to him. I would NEVER go any place crowded or unfamiliar to him without his child harness and leash around my wrist. You would be amazed at the reaction some parents get for using even these leashes and things. I was once asked if I thought that was abusive. I responded by saying " not to have him on it would in my mind be neglectful". You will always find intolerance in society as individuals we can not control that but I can control how I react to that intolerance and protect my rights as well as the rights of those in my life. Nika{Phoenix}

MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 1:08:35 PM)
So basically it's a matter of what's appropriate for certain people in certain situations, right? As for requirements when you're on site as a "professional" vs requirements when on personal time I know LOTS of teachers and ALL of them are very cautious about where they are seen, with whom they are seen and under what circumstances. People have been fired from jobs for having websites with porn on them so I don't think it's quite accurate to say that on their off time a teacher can to whatever. If a teacher were caught out at folsom fair partially dressed on the end of a leash and word got back to the school board I don't think it would be a far stretch to say that at least they'd be reprimanded and quite possible fired. I'm not saying I agree with it. IMO what people do in their own time is their own business. In reality, though, most people realize they put their livelihood at risk by "expressing" themselves in certain ways. For those who are willing to take that risk, good for them. I wish them well. For those who realize there are certain things that are appropriate in certain places at certain times the need to express ones self isn't so overwhelming that they're willing to risk their livelihood by flaunting societal conventions.

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