RE: Discrimination in Public Places....

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (Full Version)

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MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 1:11:21 PM)
One involves the safety of a minor and the other involves adults who should know better but feel an intense need to "express" themselves to all and sundry. Quite a bit different, IMO. quote: ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess you know...speaking of add...what about those CHILD LEASH things? seems ok to treat your child like an animal and lead them around on a leash so why shouldn't it be ok for consenting adults to do the same?

HayaSierra -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 1:32:20 PM)
What if the display of a slave's collar is nothing sexual, but merely a fact of life? I'm saying this because my Rokarr wears a 24/7 Collar with lock, a chain with a small sized padlock on it. Looks very tasteful, but the chain is originally one of those chain doggie collars that has been converted into a collar. He works all over the western side of the state of Kansas, and goes to plenty of public places with it on and often in plain view. There is nothing sexual about it, but he's never gotten once hassled about it and he's worn it over a week straight now, with the key at home with me. I should mention, we're here in the middle of Kansas, in a state that is not known for being kink-friendly at all, and yet we can manage to live out here without having to compromise our beliefs, nor have to hide constantly who we are. They don't even HAVE kink-clubs out here, and we don't make a sexual spectacle out of any of it. Haya Sierra ---

NINASHARP -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 1:34:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess you know...speaking of add...what about those CHILD LEASH things? seems ok to treat your child like an animal and lead them around on a leash so why shouldn't it be ok for consenting adults to do the same? i thought that there had to be some kind of posted policy for the public to read about dress codes. And like someone else said this case screams of double standard because half the stores in the mall sell the very products they were using. Perhaps it is as MercknBeth said...it's all about location. I should do that this weekend...see if i get kicked out! LOL. I had the same thought Onyx, then I read your post.. very good point.

Chaingang -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 1:54:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin There doesn't have to be a rule broken. It's a privately owned business. They have the right to refuse service to anyone...and they don't need a reason. There are some aspects of this that are unsettled issues in law. For example: a mall is currently seen as a public space, like a market square, but that happens to be on private property. So issues come up like whether journalists have a right to be on that kind of space or whether they have to leave if asked. Some people have sued for the right to hold a public demonstration of soem kind in a mall. And etc. Mercnbeth are correct about the right of refusal being basically bullshit. If you want to push it, they can't refuse you service for any reason of any kind. Why not? Because it is discrimination, plain and simple. No jacket, no tie? "I can't afford it, does this place discriminate against the poor?" And you have to think about it - would an exception be made about the jacket and tie policy if the archbishop of whatever the fuck walked in wearing his religious getup? You bet an exception would be made. It is discrimination and you aren't legally allowed to do it. But then, most people will just allow themselves to be discriminated against and walk away angry. Case closed.

agirl -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 2:40:02 PM)
Goodness me .... It's an unfair world, isn't it?....lol Let's lighten up a little here.. My 14 yr old son likes to wear black leather cuffs with spikes on....that's fine by me, he's at an age where he's trying out different identities.... But when he goes to our town centre, he doesn't wear them because ..A) He doesn't want to accidentally catch a small child with them, as they'd be at the right height to do so. .. B) He realises that if his OWN Nanna was surrounded by a group of lads wearing leather spiked cuffs and the rest of the gothy type regalia, it would make her uncomfortable and maybe even frightened. It's not necessarily about being able to express yourself.. In our own space we can express away to our heart's content...I tend to think that it's rather a good thing to be thoughtful of the other humans we may be surrounded with. Being told to leave for dressing a certain way may not be fair ( oh wail , wail).... but there are far more hardships in life to complain about. As for dress codes.....many fetish clubs/bdsm clubs insist on this ... schools have uniforms ( Here in the UK it's the norm) ......... does it matter THAT much? We have to fall in in a lot of circumstances whether we like it or not.... it's a matter of attitude as to how uncomfortable we find it. I'm not speaking about how it should be/could be but just how it is. Regards, agirl

Mercnbeth -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:00:03 PM)
quote: Ms Incognito: People have been fired from jobs for having websites with porn on them so I don't think it's quite accurate to say that on their off time a teacher can to whatever. You'll have to site some examples of this. There were a few New York city police woman who posed nude and were fired, but they are now retired on the settlement they received. Even though in this case I seem to remember they wore the NYPD uniform. At least some of it. Unless there is some enforceable "morals" clause in the contract, or they conducted "lewd" behavior in the workplace, you'd have a wrongful termination lawsuit on your hands. In "at will" employment situations you may be able to get away with it, however as an employer, I wouldn't want to risk it. A tenured teacher, unless she was taking her kids on a "class trip" to Folsom complete with fetish wear, would not be fired. Even then, it would not be a sure thing. If there was a reprimand, it would be kept VERY quiet. If it was published as a result of the school's investigation, the school could be in a liable position. I appreciate that you have a Canadian frame of reference regarding the civil legal system, but here being fired under these circumstances would be considered a legal "lottery ticket".

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:08:42 PM)
15 years ago, some of the young gay men in Vancouver started discreetly holding hands on Davie Street (well known as the gay village). There was much uproar in the gay community about how they were asking for trouble, they were imposing their lifestyle on children, and that they should only blame themselves if some rednecks out cruising for trouble beat them up. Many, many years before that women displaying their ankles in public were asking for trouble... So, here we are in 2006. Gay men all over Vancouver hold hands, kiss goodbye at bus stops, and very few locals here bat an eye. Women can't be harrassed by the police for being topless, either. The Pride Parade (which, incidently is our biggest city parade) is full of gay men scantilly dressed, topless dykes on bikes, men in dresses, women in collars...and lots of people bring their kids down to see the fun. Personally, I applaud the people who are brave enough to make a stance for the rest of us. I did then, and I do now. Nothing changes until people take a chance and stand against the status quo. History shows us that. The more I think about it, the more ashamed I am that I didn't walk in the parade last year. Maybe this year I'll be one of the brave ones. As far as I'm concerned, unless wearing a leash and collar in a mall is actually breaking a law those people should have been left alone. Cin

MstrFury -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:16:18 PM)
I think this thread is getting a little weighed down on the ..they shouldn't have...so I'll take it upon myself to prop it up just a hair on my shoulders.... first off..this is my opinion based on a similar act done by me....all Masters/Dom/ee....no matter who they may be....excerise their right to treat their...sub/slave/bottom etc....in whatever way THEY feel is right at any given time....some on the sub/slave/bottom....may or may not have a voice in this interaction..... although I said it eairler in this thread... it may have very well been part of a public humilition....within the confines of the act...the place...and the actions involved by the parties....that's what appears most likely....... I take into consideration the area....(ex-military...know it well)...the population of that area.....and the place selected.....tethered directly to her owner.... makes me wonder if they were as proud of themselves for their bravery and willingness to make her ONE happy....or were the M/D estastic with pride in the one at the end of that leash.... one cannot test limits and boundries without the playing field to do so....the entire lifestyle doesn't live behind closed doors......our little skirmishes and forrays into the nilla world ... are few and far between...and the ones we make...I don't think are so bold and shocking..that we scar the minds and numb the senses of those who may see us..... pulling my cloak around me and stepping back into the shadows...

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:39:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Would you walk into a church during Sunday morning services wearing a T-shirt that says "I only worship Satan"? Would you walk into an all black event wearing a T-shirt that says " I hate N_ _ _ _ _ s"? Would you walk into a gay bar with a shirt that says "Homos deserve to die"? Just a few examples but if you answered no to the above, why would then think it would be ok to flaunt your kink in a predominantly vanilla setting? Maybe because the above statements/behaviours are about hate and intolerance. Just how does wearing a collar and a leash compare to expressing hate and supporting intolerance? Cin

sharainks -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:40:57 PM)
I fall on the side of people not bringing their kink into public view. You can't express yourself? Of course you can, at home or with lifestyle friends. Bringing your kink into public view is likely to bring you attention that is less than positive. If you insist of bringing it to the vanilla public and can't stand the reactions then don't bring it to the vanilla public. I'll readily admit I'm a fossil. I remember a time when Liberace would never admit to being gay though everyone was pretty sure he was. That was a choice to keep his sexual preferances private. Its just as valid a choice as not keeping them private. Not making them public kept it as speculation. I don't think people have some inalienable right to display their sexual kink for others to view, especially for others who don't share those kinks. My explanation when my kid was little probably would have been "oh thats just someone who isn't smart enough not to act like that in front of other people." Not a real flattering view of someone hoping to express themselves, but it pretty much how I feel about open displays of sexual proclivities of any type.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:49:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I mean come on folks, we are so far behind that as simple an expression of affection shared between two people as hand holding or a kiss will draw stares, negative commentary and looks of disgust if that exchange happens between people of the same gender...or of two different races. I am not saying that's right...I'm just saying it just is. So in a crowded mall where there is a myriad of different culture and age groups, it is even more important sometimes, at least for myself, to at least be as inoffensive to others as I can. And so you think by supporting the status quo, things will eventually get better all on their own? Maybe no one should ever rock the societal boat, at all? After all, women got the vote by being quiet and waiting for society to say it was ok, didn't they? Black people gained human rights by never stepping into Whites Only public areas...right? Gees, just because it's always been that way doesn't make it right to keep on doing it. Social evolution demands risk-taking. Cin

JoeBlack -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:55:33 PM)
Was it wise to appear in the mall in such a manner? Probably not. Was it legal? most certainly. Did it further or retard this lifestyle? undetermined. I for one,refuse to conform. I will be courteous,and compassionate; but never conformist. I just see the aforementioned incident,as a further erosion of civil liberties. Discrimination IS illegal,as such,the mall security guard was in the wrong. We had a similar situation here, where a child wearing a pentagram was harrassed by the school; while those wearing crosses were exempt from differential treatment. Acceptance of the status quo,is giving up what belongs to you...namely your rights.

Proprietrix -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 3:58:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful 15 years ago, some of the young gay men in Vancouver started discreetly holding hands on Davie Street (well known as the gay village). There was much uproar in the gay community about how they were asking for trouble, they were imposing their lifestyle on children, and that they should only blame themselves if some rednecks out cruising for trouble beat them up. Many, many years before that women displaying their ankles in public were asking for trouble... So, here we are in 2006. Gay men all over Vancouver hold hands, kiss goodbye at bus stops, and very few locals here bat an eye. Women can't be harrassed by the police for being topless, either. The Pride Parade (which, incidently is our biggest city parade) is full of gay men scantilly dressed, topless dykes on bikes, men in dresses, women in collars...and lots of people bring their kids down to see the fun. Personally, I applaud the people who are brave enough to make a stance for the rest of us. I did then, and I do now. Nothing changes until people take a chance and stand against the status quo. History shows us that. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] VERY well said. I find it so disheartening that those who are willing to stand up and put their necks on the line for the freedoms to do what it is we do, are talking punches from the very "community of lifestylers" they are supporting. At one point I was going to respond to this thread questioning if those who disapprove of the collar/leash in public find themselves approving or disapproving of the laws that keep us "down". (i.e. stores not being permitted to sell bondage items, certain airlines not letting us transport certain things in our toybags, etc...) but I wasn't quite sure how to phrase it. I have this concept in my head of "whether you realize it or not, those people who are wearing their leashes in public are taking the hit so you have the freedom to practice this lifestyle." but I can't seem to get myself articulate enough to express what I'm thinking. Yes, it may be that some folks only do this in their bedrooms. But when we allow little intolerances like supporting mall security for escorting someone out of the building, it leads to bigger intolerance, like allowing business to shut their doors to people wearing collars, and then city ordinences against collars, and then laws that prohibit any type of clothing that may insinuate or hint to sadomasochism, and frankly, that kind of crap is exactly what gets a politician's foot in our bedroom doors. That's not only not making progress. It's moving backward. If we can't even support our own and agree amongst ourselves that it just might be ok to go to the mall wearing a collar and leash, how the heck can we expect to get any kind of backing toward legalized poly, same-sex marriage, holding parties in our own homes without fear of raids, (insert various political agenda here). It gives me more of a headache defending collars in the mall to lifestylists, than it does to just go wear the damn thing and explain it to the vanilla folks.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 4:03:06 PM)
i have worn full rubber in public and taken my slaves out in public full rubber doll dressed while i'm dressed in normal street clothes. once i had a little girl ask her mom "what were we doing?".. even though i wasn't doing anything illegal i'm sure shouting fire in a crowded theatre would be covered under my right to free speech. but it made me realize that now that mom is going to have to go home and explain to her 5 year old about alternative lifestyles. i've stopped overtly public play or humiliation. i understand it's our rights to do as we feel, so i can see this side of the fence. at the same time i can see the side of the fence of being the mother having to explain why that man (or woman) is leashed. usually animals are leashed and this can send a negative impression to someone so young and very impressionable. this was about 9 years ago and now i'm VERY careful of that. when people drag their lifestyle out in public, A... you're opening up a WHOLE lotta cans of worms.. B.. it makes us look depraved and all sorts of negative connotations that could be derived from that .. and C.. at the end of the day it's an exhibition/humiliation scene foisted upon unsuspecting people. live and learn

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 5:19:27 PM)
And you have me, who goes into shoe stores at least once a month with my local partner, picks out a few nice pairs, has him lovingly kneel in front of me, take off my shoes, caress my feet, put on the new shoes, walk around and show them off, and then repeat. No one bats an eyelash. Part of the reason that this incident is attention getting is because it rarely happens- almost all the time when people go out dressed or acting weird the universal response is to just be ignored or not even noticed. I understand the concept of "know where you're going" and "dress right for the conext." And I agree with them. But we're talking about public places where there dress code is majorly casual and self-expressionistic. I'm not going to decide to wear or not wear something because it might make someone uncomfortable in that situation. It has nothing to do with needing to get attention or make a point- it's just because it's what I feel like and what I want to do. There is a balance that can be struck whereever someone goes. My sister got a Calvin Klein window display taken down because the male mannequines were supposedly showing erections under the jeans. Should I dress in malls according to her standards so that no one could possibly see my erect nipples? In a world where a store that markets to 8-16 year old girls sells handcuff jewelry and other kinky iconography, I think it's safe to say that people wearing leather and kinky type accesories isn't really pushing the envelope THAT much. There's a balance and no one should expect the world to accommodate them. I understand people who feel it's inappropriate, my sister feels it's inappropriate. But she still calls me to come and babysit the nephews and take them out all the time, knowing I might very well show up in a big black leather collar and other kinky type attire. She values being with me, her free babysitting, and the trust she has in me to take care of her children above any issue she may have with my clothes.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 5:25:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Proprietrix I have this concept in my head of "whether you realize it or not, those people who are wearing their leashes in public are taking the hit so you have the freedom to practice this lifestyle." but I can't seem to get myself articulate enough to express what I'm thinking. I'd say that's articulate enough. I don't understand this concept of "It's better to stay quiet, and let people tell me what I do is offensive, than risk upsetting some people who may just have based their opinion on ignorance as opposed to knowledge". I believe a parent's job is to answer questions, (even the hard ones) not to hide their children from life. Many of the same people who worry that seeing someone in a leash and collar will destroy a child's innocence, don't seem to have any problem with allowing them to see horror films, or news coverage of violent world events. Just food for thought from an educator. Cin

TxBadMan -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 5:33:06 PM)
I am not sure exactly what you are ranting about. The fact that they were asked ( and escorted out ) to leave? Or the fact that they were behaving in such a way in a public place? Speaking from a law enforcement side; this is a public place; if enough complaints were filed with security, then the mall has the right to ask them to leave. Speaking from a personal side; if it was just the clothing, the collars and the leashes; I could care less. Anyone has the right to express themselves how they see fit. Now, if their actual behavior was being questioned, then I would have to say that acting in such a manner around little one's is inapproiate.

EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 5:35:02 PM)
honestly.. i'll say this.. from someone that takes a 'devil's advocate' sorta approach this. i met my first slave in a shoe store.. i'm saying this.. if you go to a NON bdsm sorta venue.. yeah.. expect looks and expect to fuck up other people's delicate sensibilities. i dont drag others into my dungeon and that's what OVERT public display does.. yeah, my slaves wear collars in public.. they ARENT (typically) attached to a leash. i try to do public play LATE at nite where NO kids can see.. that's some helluva shit to explain to a kid. if a child is awake on hollywood BLVD at 11p.. then the parent needs to be questioned but not me. if someone drags their slaves to a mall fully fetish and middle of the day. yeah, that's sorta wrong. BDSM is an extension of our sexuality.. for odd fetishists like me it does become our fetish, however.. just like i wouldn't strapon fuck someone in the mall because it's our kink.. or i wouldn't drip wax on someone in a mall because it's our kink.. then someone shouldn't do things that sorta use people as tools and vehicles to get off on. i KNOW the public play i do engage in (discreet unless at a fetish event).. then yes.. that IS foisting your fetishes and bedroom behaviours onto others. honestly.. i didnt have that opinion until i heard that little girl ask her mom what we were doing. there are TOO many venues about for adults to show their kinks publically- trust me, i do it ALL the time. hey, i'm a devil's advocate on this one.. when i walk my belgian dog slave out for his walk.. i put him in a diaper until nite time, then i take him out in the park into a remote part DISCRETELY to piss and poop. i dont foist my fetishes on anyone.. they don't deserve to be unwitting partners in our scenes. with that being said.. i have been led by my top in an inappropriate place led by my septum piercing with a thin chain.. i endured it for him. was it right?.. it felt right to us.. did it feel right to the people that had to explain to their kids why they had to see a woman led on a thin silver chain by her septum around Montreal? no. i don't. i dont partake in scenes that others don't agree to typically. if i know i'm public.. (either a dungeon scene at a party.. or walking in the mall with my slaves fully leashed).. yeah.. in a perfect world i would do that. also in a perfect world i could break the jaw of people that piss me off and i could also walk around naked because i hate clothes. i'm not disagreeing with you, i see both sides of the fence.. i just feel when people take private scenes public, you're foisting your kink out of the bedroom into places where delicate sensibilities could be questioned. my take on it. this scene has a bad name enough.. when people see outward BDSM in public, we have to realize it's not the same as someone seeing a couple kissing. it's outward BDSM and TRUST Me.. there will be countless questions that have to be answered at home.. that's not fair. just like vegas. what's done in the dungeon, stays in the dungeon.. anything you do outside of the dungeon or your personal home (be it strapon, crawling, pissing, shitting, or simply a collar)..is DEFINITELY construed as fetish play. it's wrong to push that on people. with that being said.. the switch of devil's advocate says.. fuck them and their sensibilites.. they won't know a differen't world or way of life if they don't see it.

temptressofsouls -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 5:41:08 PM)
In regards to what You said, Ebony....I dont feel that a full rubber outfit is appropriate in public, but I think there's a big difference between full rubber outfits and a collar and leash...depending on the collar and leash, and the way those attached to either end were acting. I understand that, when in public, it's not always appropriate to act exactly how you want to, especially when it has anything to do with being in the proximity of a minor. However, I feel a discreet collar and leash ought to be within the realms of acceptable behaviour in public. As O/others have said, it's a lot less offensive (to some) then a drunkard or someone scantily clad. Master and I have had the "when and where is it okay to be leashed" conversation between the two of U/us within the last month or so. I think for the time being we're sticking to the park-and only when a bunch of kiddies arent around.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/2/2006 6:14:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess if you go to a NON bdsm sorta venue.. yeah.. expect looks and expect to fuck up other people's delicate sensibilities. As one of my gay friends is fond of saying: It offends my delicate sensibility to see a man kiss a woman, but have I ever expected them to keep it behind closed doors? Maybe all of society should just dress in matching track suits, shave themselves bald, and all learn to talk one language...Then no one's delicate sensibilities will be offended. Heaven forbid we should actually all learn to tolerate each other's differences. Cin

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