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RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 10:39:21 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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"And the whole issue has become another conspiracy.  "

Well, if by "another conspiracy" you mean "state law in several states", then, yes, I suppose you have a point.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 1/28/2011 10:45:24 PM >


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 10:44:46 PM   
truckinslave


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"And that since no where does the Constitution make the distinction between citizen and natural born citizen, they went with English law."

No.
The Constitution clearly makes a difference (as Marbury affirms).
Wong  used English common law because, as they said, the Constitution did not define the difference between citizen and NBC.
Which is kinda one of my frequent points.
Well, okay, more than just "kinda".



_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 10:51:12 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

"Donofrio v. Wells. He went after a Secretary of State of NJ as part of his suit. If Senators arent required, why in the hell did he expect her to be? "

I don't follow the above.

Donofrio, as I remember, sued Wells to force her to keep McCain and 0bama0 off the Presidential ballot.

Nowhwere mentioned were the qualifications of Wells to be SecState NJ, or McCain to be a Senator from Az.
Or the qualifications of 0bama0 to hold office in Kenya. That was not part of the suit.




You are correct, I misread the case intro. What happened was Donofrio claimed three Presidential candidates were ineligible to hold that office...

In October 2008, Leo Donofrio, an attorney from New Jersey, filed suit to challenge the eligibility of Obama, Republican presidential candidate John McCain (see details here) and the Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero.[8] Donofrio asserted that all three candidates were ineligible: Obama due to having dual U.S. and British nationality at birth (the latter via Obama's father), McCain due to being born in the Panama Canal Zone, and Calero due to allegedly still having Nicaraguan citizenship.[57]

Donofrio was not among those who claimed Obama might have been born outside Hawaii.[155] Also, Donofrio did not challenge the fact that Obama is a U.S. citizen and instead challenged only whether Obama is a natural-born citizen.[156]

The case was referred to the Supreme Court by Justice Clarence Thomas. When the case reached the United States Supreme Court on December 8, 2008, the Court declined without comment to hear the case.[57]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donofrio_v._Wells#Donofrio_v._Wells

Wongs case made a point that while he was a citizen, he wasnt a naturally born citizen.

In a 6–2 decision, the Supreme Court held that Wong Kim Ark had indeed acquired U.S. citizenship at birth and that "the American citizenship which Wong Kim Ark acquired by birth within the United States has not been lost or taken away by anything happening since his birth."[14]

The 14th Amendment's citizenship clause, according to the court's majority, had to be interpreted in light of English common law,[15] which had included all native-born children except for those who were: (1) born to foreign rulers or diplomats, (2) born on foreign public ships, or (3) born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of the country's territory.[16][17] The majority held that the "subject to the jurisdiction" phrase in the 14th Amendment specifically incorporated these exceptions (plus a fourth — namely, that Indian tribes "not taxed" were not considered subject to U.S. jurisdiction[18][19])—and that since none of these exceptions applied to Wong's situation, Wong was a U.S. citizen, regardless of the fact that his parents were not U.S. citizens (and were, in fact, ineligible ever to become U.S. citizens because of the Chinese Exclusion Act). The opinion emphasized the fact that "during all the time of their said residence in the United States, as domiciled residents therein, the said mother and father of said Wong Kim Ark were engaged in the prosecution of business, and were never engaged in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China".[20]

Since Wong was a U.S. citizen from birth, the restrictions of the Chinese Exclusion Act did not apply to him. An act of Congress, the majority held, does not trump the Constitution; such a law "cannot control [the Constitution's] meaning, or impair its effect, but must be construed and executed in subordination to its provisions."[3][21]


And the fear, along with the disenting decision...

In the view of the minority, excessive reliance on jus soli (birthplace) as the principal determiner of citizenship would lead to an untenable state of affairs in which "the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not".[26]

Sort of makes Donofrio's whole argument confusing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 11:23:57 PM   
truckinslave


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Hell, I've sort of made a hobby of it, and it is confusing.
Most people read two paragraphs and think "natural born citizen just means born here" and "he published his birth certificate" and "case dismissed".
When you get into it, it's just slightly more complicated than that.
And the fact almost all of us just hate is that lawyers make their living splitting hairs....

If the states enact these laws I think it goes to discovery, and I think it gets real interesting real fast, and I think 0bama0 withdraws "for the good of the country".
Which I think would be the worst of all possible outcomes.
His supporters are left embittered and angry, and none of us get any clear guidance for the future....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 11:29:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
I dont forsee that happening. I still cant help but believe the GOP, once they took over the House, would not have found a way to bury him if they believed the birther story. But, the very fact that he was born to an american citizen...

In situations where only one parent is a United States citizen, he or she must have lived in the United States for at least five years at some point before the child's birth as a full American citizen, and at least two of these five years must have occurred after the parent's 14th birthday. In the case of a child born to an American mother, the child is usually considered a natural born citizen, whether or not the mother is married. However, if an American father is involved in a relationship with a foreign woman and the couple is not married, the father may need to fight for the child's right to citizenship.

http://www.wisegeek.com/in-the-united-states-what-is-a-natural-born-citizen.htm

Thats as succint as I have seen it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 11:34:14 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
Well
Wizegeek succinctly expressed his own opinion.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 11:37:31 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
That is true. Much of all of this is opinion. And the only opinion that counts is the SC's... who isnt, and has not directly, ruled on this issue... and doesnt seem to be willing to do so any time in the future. I highly doubt any of these laws will hold up, if they are heard at all.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: I predicted this. - 1/28/2011 11:43:34 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Another interesting question... interesting to me, that is...

Can a child who isnt legally able to give up citizenship be considered to hold citizenship?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 12:52:44 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
Remember Elian Gonzales?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 6:46:02 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Hell, I've sort of made a hobby of it, and it is confusing.
Most people read two paragraphs and think "natural born citizen just means born here" and "he published his birth certificate" and "case dismissed".
When you get into it, it's just slightly more complicated than that.
And the fact almost all of us just hate is that lawyers make their living splitting hairs....

Actually it isn't any more complicated.

Without a legal definition or an existing precedent a court has to use the commonly understood meaning of the term and the commonly understood meaning of the term is 'born in the US.'

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 10:03:49 AM   
truckinslave


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So, is it your position, or just the "commonly understood meaning of the term" that a baby born fifty feet inside the US Border to illegal aliens and subsequently raised in Mongolia is a "natural born citizen" eligible to the Presidency, that that's the only thing the Founders had in mind when they wrote the Constitution, and made being a natural born citizen a separate and distinct qualification..... 
 
See, this is why we have judges. I don't know if you've spent much time in court, but my experience is that "commonly understood meanings" lack a certain je ne sais quoi in the courtroom.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 10:37:51 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

So, is it your position, or just the "commonly understood meaning of the term" that a baby born fifty feet inside the US Border to illegal aliens and subsequently raised in Mongolia is a "natural born citizen" eligible to the Presidency, that that's the only thing the Founders had in mind when they wrote the Constitution, and made being a natural born citizen a separate and distinct qualification..... 
 
See, this is why we have judges. I don't know if you've spent much time in court, but my experience is that "commonly understood meanings" lack a certain je ne sais quoi in the courtroom.

That is the commonly accepted meaning of the term. I don't care that a bunch of bigots are trying to invent a way to disqualify a black man from being POTUS.

In general all terms in law have very specific defintions somewhere in statute (read the unrealone's threads for examples) but in this case there is no such definition. Until such a definition is created then it is a common law term and that means it means what the average person thinks it means. Which in this case means a citizen born inside the US.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 10:39:42 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
So, that's a "yes".

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 10:50:42 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Yes. But he never was a US citizen, nor did he hold dual citizenship.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 6:51:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Your de Vatel did NOT coin the term unless he lived over 250 years ago.


Emerich de Vattel, 1714- 1767,  is most noted for The Law of Nations (1758), in which he defined a "natural born citizen".  Many of the Founding Fathers are known to have studied his work.




Sorry bout that trucker.  Maybe you should be a bit concise.  when I googled M. De Vatel (your quote) I only got 29,300 links.

Maybe you should make an attempt to be concise next time.. or maybe even close to giving someone a fucking CLUE.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 6:55:29 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Bottom line is THIS.

Unless Obama's mom repudiated her American citizenship prior to his birth, he could have been born on Alpha Centauri.  He is still a natural born US citizen according to US law and the "birthers" are showing themselves to be totally IGNORANT.

Same for McCain who was also born off US soil.

Both of them are natural born US citizens.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: I predicted this. - 1/29/2011 6:58:06 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Remember Elian Gonzales?


Elian Gonzalez was neither born in the us, nor was he born to US citizens.

He was picked up at sea during an attempt to illegally settle in the US.

He was an illegal immigrant.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: I predicted this. - 1/30/2011 12:09:33 AM   
domiguy


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truckin slave is a pain slut. lol.

This thread is making him hard....what a pud.

And people wonder why this site sucks.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: I predicted this. - 1/30/2011 8:10:15 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Remember Elian Gonzales?

Speedy's other half?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 99
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