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RE: Disppointing Master - 1/29/2011 11:29:07 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		...or it might just be a mutually consensual relationship in which both parties prefer the punishment dynamic to correct any issues that arise in which the submissive is not following adequately the demands of the dominant?

For some, *on both sides*, there is a preference for correction and closure of issues in a short space of time rather than a long, drawn-out arguing/sulking phase.

In some relationships (such as Jeff and Carol) they prefer discussions and correction. Some Masters prefer punishment and correction.

Each relationship is different, and if physical punishment or some other kind of punishment works for the couple involved, then what's the harm? Why try to dismiss someone else's relationship dynamic simply because it does not match your own personal view of what 'tw00' BDSM relationships look like?




_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/29/2011 11:48:56 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain
If a dominant has been maneuvered into a position where they feel they have to do something, that's not very dominant.



you deal in absolutes -

when a Dominant feels that his dominance is being threatened by the manipulations of a submissive then he is clearly an insecure individual.  if a Dominant thinks a sub is manipulating him for punishment play then it is the dominants job to handle that, on the other hand he may well recognise the manipulation and run with it, because THAT IS theyre dynamic.

there are no absolutes here.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 1/29/2011 12:32:33 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Chulain)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/29/2011 12:00:36 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
This isn't true if he doesn't enjoy punishing her, which is very possible.

Oooo, here we go again. If a submissive didn't enjoy it, even if his or her enjoyment is generated solely by the knowledge that the dominant enjoys dishing it out, the submissive would not allow the dominant to do it. Are we going to devolve this discussion into another "consensual non-consent" shindig?


It's got nothing to do with non-consent.
It's not because she consents to the relationship that she ENJOYS every single action in the relationship... which you are claiming she does.

The parameters of their relationship may be such that if she refuses to be punished, he will release her.
That means that she may enjoy the RELATIONSHIP enough to ENDURE the punishment, but it doesn't mean at all that she necessarily enjoys being punsished.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
He may be punishing her because he feels he has to, the same way a parent feels they have to punish a child, and gain no enjoyment from it.

If you re-read the part where your write "He may be punishing her because he feels he has to [my emphasis]," you'll laugh as hard as I am. A dominant administers "whatever you want to call it" to a submissive because the dominant wants to. If a dominant has been maneuvered into a position where they feel they have to do something, that's not very dominant.

This may surprise you, but a D/s relationship is nothing like a parent-child relationship, other than there are human emotions involved in both. Your analogy is inapt.



D/s relationships can be very much like parent-child relationship from a disciplinary side of things.

Not all dominants enjoy inflicting pain or punishment.
If a dominant has a submissive that's agreed to be a 100% obedient to him, and they failed at accomplishing this, the dominant may feel they HAVE to take action, they may not have WANTED the submissive to be bad, but now that the submissive broke the rules, they need to be punished.

That punishment isn't necessarily enjoyable to the dominant, IF he doesn't enjoy a punishment dynamic.

This is the same way a mother may not want her child to be bad, but still feels she has to punish it when it's bad...

The fact that consenting adults use punishment in their dynamic doesn't mean that either one likes to do it for the sake of punishment alone.

Ishtar

_____________________________


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Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/29/2011 7:45:37 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
This isn't true if he doesn't enjoy punishing her, which is very possible.

Oooo, here we go again. If a submissive didn't enjoy it, even if his or her enjoyment is generated solely by the knowledge that the dominant enjoys dishing it out, the submissive would not allow the dominant to do it. Are we going to devolve this discussion into another "consensual non-consent" shindig?






You are quite off the mark.
My Master does not "enjoy dishing it out".
He does not enjoy punishing me.
It brings him no amount of pleasure.

And as for me: my enjoyment is nil.
It is not a kind of pain I enjoy and I hate that I have done something to deserve it.

I "allow" it because of the trust I have placed in my dominant.
I trust his judgement.
As much as it may hurt, I know he will not harm me.

So why use physical correction if he doesn't enjoy doing so?
It is a tool.

Obviously, your experience and opinion are different.

Respectfully, that does not make you necessarily correct in your logic, even if that is how it worked for you.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/29/2011 8:50:56 PM   
MaxsGirl


Posts: 355
Joined: 12/2/2010
From: The Arctic Circle
Status: offline 		Chulain, you make me very curious.  From your posts in this and other threads, it seems obvious to me that you have very little understanding of BDSM or the D/s or M/s dynamic.  You also don't seem terribly interested in learning it as someone who is looking to take up the practice.  Are you here to do some kind of research?

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 5:06:29 AM   
HisEvelyn


Posts: 252
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline 		I also agree that you can definitely punish a masochist. Master and I are sadist/masochist together. However, Master does not punish me physically. The act of physical pain for pleasure and physical pain for punishment are extremely different.

I'm actually one who really enjoys being beaten for pleasure, but I could not handle pain for punishment. When Master spanks me and crops me until I'm bruised and sore during a scene, that is fantastic fun. If he were ever to lay a hand on me in anger or punishment, it would hurt me emotionally in a way I'm not sure I could recover from. Right there, that tells me personally that there is a big difference between pleasure pain and bad pain. And that means you could CERTAINLY use pain to inflict punishment on a masochist.

a physical punishment works for some, but it would not work for me. I was abused growing up, and as such, physical punishment just translates to VERY BAD headspace for me. The most physical Master has told me he would ever get would be to make me kneel on rice in the kitchen corner if I ever did anything TRULY bad. I haven't earned this yet, nor can I see it happening in the future. I simply try too hard to please him all the time. And the usual punishment for honest mistakes or misunderstanding is 1)knowing I disappointed him, which is a personal hell for me, or 2) some sort of appropriate chore or task to teach me how to improve or otherwise impress upon me not to do it again.

In fact, there's been one or two times when I've nearly earned punishment for not forgiving myself for a mistake! LOL!

(in reply to MaxsGirl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:02:00 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain


If you re-read the part where your write "He may be punishing her because he feels he has to [my emphasis]," you'll laugh as hard as I am. A dominant administers "whatever you want to call it" to a submissive because the dominant wants to. If a dominant has been maneuvered into a position where they feel they have to do something, that's not very dominant.



I think dominants will often do things they don't want to do but feel they have to out of necessity.

Example: I had a doctor whose office was a minimum of an hour away from where I live.
My Master hated having to drive an hour there and an hour back plus the usual wait in the waiting room, but he did it because it was in my best interest.


_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:08:36 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nightfury

I was wondering how slaves/subs deal with the times that you disappoint your Master. Not to say that you do it intentionally or desire to, but the times when it happens. How does your Master/Mistress respond to it and how do you keep from beating yourself up over it so much?

This especially for those that are not able to be with their Master/Mistress 24/7.



Depends on the specifics. Sometimes there are tears involved, sometimes I just shrug it off. It depends, largely, on how serious it is and how much it actually upset him.


_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to nightfury)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:25:31 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: pittbunny
When i fail to perform my duties / responsibilities, Master disciplines me with His leather strap. i kneel before Him to present the strap to Him and kiss the strap before handing it to Him.  He determines how many strikes to inflict on my ass, i kneel on the bed and i count each strike as it's inflicted, then i thank Him after each blow.  When He finishes, i kiss the strap and put it away. 

Once the discipline is administered, the misdeed is entirely forgiven and forgotten and never mentioned again.  i find this method works beautifully for both of us, because i receive the discipline and education i want and need, i don't beat myself up for my mistakes, and i don't feel rejected or cut off from His affection as a result of my discipline.

How is that discipline, other than in the BDSM sense? You no doubt enjoy being whipped. So you're getting something which pleases you (even if the pleasure you are getting is from knowing that you are pleasing him). That's why it's simply not possible for a dominant to punish or discipline (in the non-BDSM meaning) a submissive

Edit for typo.




While I enjoy pain, I need proper warmups, not included in the above scenario, which I would not enjoy AT ALL.

Did you mean "not possibly for a D to punish a masochist physically"? Submissive /=masochist.

Or literally, "not possibly for a D to punish a submissive"? His disapproval/silent treatment is more than adequate punishment for me.

(in reply to Chulain)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:34:42 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl

Chulain, you make me very curious.  From your posts in this and other threads, it seems obvious to me that you have very little understanding of BDSM or the D/s or M/s dynamic.  You also don't seem terribly interested in learning it as someone who is looking to take up the practice.  Are you here to do some kind of research?


AHA!


(in reply to MaxsGirl)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:40:08 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
This isn't true if he doesn't enjoy punishing her, which is very possible.

Oooo, here we go again. If a submissive didn't enjoy it, even if his or her enjoyment is generated solely by the knowledge that the dominant enjoys dishing it out, the submissive would not allow the dominant to do it. Are we going to devolve this discussion into another "consensual non-consent" shindig?

quote:

He may be punishing her because he feels he has to, the same way a parent feels they have to punish a child, and gain no enjoyment from it.

If you re-read the part where your write "He may be punishing her because he feels he has to [my emphasis]," you'll laugh as hard as I am. A dominant administers "whatever you want to call it" to a submissive because the dominant wants to. If a dominant has been maneuvered into a position where they feel they have to do something, that's not very dominant.

This may surprise you, but a D/s relationship is nothing like a parent-child relationship, other than there are human emotions involved in both. Your analogy is inapt.



Fella, as politely as possible, I don't get why you're on a D/s discussion site if you don't understand it, unless you're here to learn.  There is no way that you should be lecturing us in "how it works".  At the very most, you should be using your own relationships as examples of how it worked for you, but I suspect you've not yet had a D/s relationship.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Chulain)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:45:30 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:



ORIGINAL: pittbunny
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: pittbunny
When i fail to perform my duties / responsibilities, Master disciplines me with His leather strap. i kneel before Him to present the strap to Him and kiss the strap before handing it to Him.  He determines how many strikes to inflict on my ass, i kneel on the bed and i count each strike as it's inflicted, then i thank Him after each blow.  When He finishes, i kiss the strap and put it away. 

Once the discipline is administered, the misdeed is entirely forgiven and forgotten and never mentioned again.  i find this method works beautifully for both of us, because i receive the discipline and education i want and need, i don't beat myself up for my mistakes, and i don't feel rejected or cut off from His affection as a result of my discipline.

How is that discipline, other than in the BDSM sense? You no doubt enjoy being whipped. So you're getting something which pleases you (even if the pleasure you are getting is from knowing that you are pleasing him). That's why it's simply not possible for a dominant to punish or discipline (in the non-BDSM meaning) a submissive

Edit for typo.




While I enjoy pain, I need proper warmups, not included in the above scenario, which I would not enjoy AT ALL.

Did you mean "not possibly for a D to punish a masochist physically"? Submissive /=masochist.

Or literally, "not possibly for a D to punish a submissive"? His disapproval/silent treatment is more than adequate punishment for me.


For that matter, why does he say "you no doubt enjoy being whipped"? Not every submissive or every masochist likes being whipped. Hell I love pain but there still certain types I utterly HATE. Like canes. I hate canes. Oh G-d I hate canes. Evil fucking bastards they are.

That's like the "oh so you are a maso so you like going to the doctor and getting shots right?" BS. It's just not true for most of us. Even people like who love tats and piercings don't usually enjoy getting our blood drawn and shots. It's a completely different situation that changes the emotional reaction to the needle.

Same as punishment v. playtime. Different situation, different emotions, different reaction.

Anyone who thinks it's not possible for a d-type to punish a s-type needs to get out in their community and start learning.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 8:54:24 AM   
SourandSweet


Posts: 66
Joined: 1/22/2011
Status: offline 		Usually there's a build up and I'll get a warning that I'm in danger of overstepping the mark, a word, a look, whatever.  And usually I'll have the sense to stop.

On the few occasions I've 'gone too far' he's very simply made it clear one way or another and then switched back to normal immediately, as though it never happened.

How he does that varies, a slap, verbally or whatever.

It always unsettles me, in that for those few moments he goes very unemotional, and that's what really hurts, along with knowing that it's my own fault!

:-)

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 3:24:52 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nightfury

I was wondering how slaves/subs deal with the times that you disappoint your Master. Not to say that you do it intentionally or desire to, but the times when it happens. How does your Master/Mistress respond to it and how do you keep from beating yourself up over it so much?

This especially for those that are not able to be with their Master/Mistress 24/7.



Firstly, it'd be almost impossible to disappoint him.

He knows who I am , knows what motivates me to do things, or not to do things, knows how I'm likely to act, react and behave in almost any situation...How could he be disappointed in me unless I have a personality transplant, or behave completely out of character?

We have a penalty *system*....it's based entirely on *You do this , I do that*. No disappointment, no hurt feelings, no emotional wailing and no beating of emotional breasts. 

We both KNOW why I'm tied over a chair with a cane aiming at my arse, there's not a lot of need for anything beyond getting on with the job.

I don't beat myself up for things like this at all, it'd be silly to do that and he doesn't think badly of me either. I'm not particularly sorry and nor's he. There's nothing emotional attached to it.

When it comes to fuck-ups, or relationship difficulties, we are rather like Jeff and Carol. We have a look at what went awry, have a good chat about it, we apologise if need be, for any bits we ought and then on to how to sort it from there. These are not disappointing, punishing or penalty issues, these are *me and you* things.

If either of us managed to disappoint the other we'd be heartliy sorry but it's really not something we have to think about.

agirl












(in reply to nightfury)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 4:11:59 PM   
Chulain


Posts: 283
Joined: 1/27/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
That punishment isn't necessarily enjoyable to the dominant, IF he doesn't enjoy a punishment dynamic.

If a dominant doesn't enjoy dishing out "punishment," then he or she is not going to dish it out. A D/s relationship is a voluntary, consensual relationship. No one is going to stay around if they are not enjoying it, on some level, for one reason or another.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 5:25:15 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
That punishment isn't necessarily enjoyable to the dominant, IF he doesn't enjoy a punishment dynamic.

If a dominant doesn't enjoy dishing out "punishment," then he or she is not going to dish it out. A D/s relationship is a voluntary, consensual relationship. No one is going to stay around if they are not enjoying it, on some level, for one reason or another.



I used to be in a relationship with a man who wasn't into "punishments".

He owned me for two years.
BDSM play was not included in our relationship. He did not use whips on me, of would tie me up, or have kinky sex with me, or induce pain in me.

In those two years, there where about 4 times that I REALLY disappointed him.
Once by accident, the other times by failing to obey him.

All those times, he took me to the basement, tied my hands above my head, and then proceeded to beat me until my knees buckled out from under me and I could no longer support my own body weight.

Are you suggesting that he enjoyed doing this, and if that is the case, then WHY didn't he do it more than a handful of times in a 2 year period?
Are you suggesting that I enjoyed having this done to me, and if that's the case, then WHY would I be with somebody that didn't do this more than a handful of times in a 2 year period?

I didn't say that he, or I didn't enjoy our relationship, we did -which is why we stayed together- I'm saying that neither he, nor I enjoyed him beating me, yet there where times where he still felt in necessary to do so.

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 1/30/2011 6:24:57 PM >

_____________________________


Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to Chulain)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 6:07:39 PM   
pittbunny


Posts: 8
Joined: 1/17/2011
Status: offline 		Dear Chulain and other posters,

i should have clarified that when Master strikes me with His strap, it ALWAYS causes the kind of pain that neither of us enjoy.  i receive NO PLEASURE from punishment because it is inflicted in a way that causes physical pain beyond my tolerance, and emotional pain from disappointing Him and failing in my duties.  i also know that punishment does not bring pleasure to my Master because He wants me to be a good girl.  He also knows that He can use me to inflict sadistic pleasure whenever He desires, but the strap is reserved for punishment and discipline, not for play time.

Sincerely,
Dominant Owner's pittbunny  

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 7:01:09 PM   
Chulain


Posts: 283
Joined: 1/27/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pittbunny
i should have clarified that when Master strikes me with His strap, it ALWAYS causes the kind of pain that neither of us enjoy.  i receive NO PLEASURE from punishment because it is inflicted in a way that causes physical pain beyond my tolerance

If that's how you two like to play, go for it.

But neither of you would do it if you did not enjoy it, for one reason or another. That's how people are.

(in reply to pittbunny)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 7:16:14 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
That punishment isn't necessarily enjoyable to the dominant, IF he doesn't enjoy a punishment dynamic.

If a dominant doesn't enjoy dishing out "punishment," then he or she is not going to dish it out. A D/s relationship is a voluntary, consensual relationship. No one is going to stay around if they are not enjoying it, on some level, for one reason or another.




Good to know that you live your life based upon only what you want to do.

There are some other people that choose to balance out wants with responsibilities.

That does not mean that on the whole my Master does not enjoy the relationship; you are right, if he didn't we would not be together.

And if I caused him frequent disappointment, it would be a clear sign that we were incompatible.

But your actual assertion was that punishment must be enjoyable to the dominant on some level is incorrect.

_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to Chulain)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Disppointing Master - 1/30/2011 7:49:17 PM   
Chulain


Posts: 283
Joined: 1/27/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
Good to know that you live your life based upon only what you want to do.

We're talking about a voluntary interpersonal relationship, not going to work because you have to earn a living.

quote:

There are some other people that choose to balance out wants with responsibilities.

Please, tell me how it's ever a submissive's responsibility to be "punished." Tell me how it's ever a dominant's responsibility to "punish" his or her submissive. Go on, tell me how either of those is like the need to earn a living so you can eat and have clothes and a place to live

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl
Chulain, you make me very curious.  From your posts in this and other threads, it seems obvious to me that you have very little understanding of BDSM or the D/s or M/s dynamic.

Well, that's where you're wrong.

You (whoever you are) submit because you want to. You can always say no, and the fact that you choose not to say no means you agree, because for one reason or another, you enjoy it. Maybe it's out of pride ("I can take this") or out of a desire to please your dominant. But if you did not enjoy it on some level for one reason or another, you would not allow it to happen.


< Message edited by Chulain -- 1/30/2011 7:54:49 PM >

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 40
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