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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 8:28:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The former (that atheism is, as a general rule, less sexist,  etc.) is probably true.


What's your evidence for this statement?



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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 8:39:48 PM   
Charles6682


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You are correct Allthat,Paganism has been around longer than Christianity.So,Paganism is not a new religion.Perhaps I should say is that in the last 40-50,Paganism has found a new generation of fan's.As for Wicca,last time I checked,Wicca is the fastest growing religion in America.Perhaps people have once again,found a major interest in Goddess based spirituality.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 8:42:37 PM   
Chulain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
Or in other words, God, if there is a God, probably doesn't much care whether you think His religion is matriarchal enough.

Oh, really? Why would you say that? Why would god be any more likely to not care than to care?

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 8:52:57 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
Or in other words, God, if there is a God, probably doesn't much care whether you think His religion is matriarchal enough.

Oh, really? Why would you say that? Why would god be any more likely to not care than to care?


Because if there is a God, He (or She) probably thinks that His (or Her) religion is not a democracy. In other words, God, being God, makes the rules. (Instead of putting it to a vote).

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 1/28/2011 8:54:42 PM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 9:13:41 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu
that's part of why Atheism is the fastest rising belief system, as more people become literate and humanist, and less sexist and racist.

Gosh, I hope that's true. Sadly, I am not as certain as you are.



Lots of arguments about which is the fastest growing... From Wiccan to Buddism, Atheists to Jehovah, even a smattering of Muslim.

In the US, atheism has grown by only 0.4%, according to the last census. Will be interesting to see the new results.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 11:11:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chulain

Think about the intolerant attitudes espoused by major religions, the primary one being "If you're not like us, something's wrong and we need to fix you or kill you." Not universal, but rather prevalent.

Think of the illiterate bitterness that can assert as a fact an ignorant caricature of something about which it knows nothing.

K.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 11:24:07 PM   
Aneirin


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Etymoloy of Paganism;

late 14c., from L.L. paganus "pagan," in classical L. "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE base *pag- "to fix" (see pact). Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908.

Neo Paganism, that which presumably was with us from above mentioned 1908  applies to nature worship and pantheism and there wicca which was formed later, another related belief system. The Goddess in those belief systems is allied to nature as in the mother Goddess, Gaia etc, ( Gaia also being the earth goddess in ancient Greece's creation saga, the world being formed by the mating of Gaia and the sky god ),the embodiment from which we all come from if one chooses to believe one is a part of nature, the planet and the universe as opposed to the creation of a  god that lives in the sky

Furthermore where the belief in Christianity is that God gave us the world and nature to use, which may be interpreted as exploit or abuse by some, there are those that believe nature is part of us, we are part of it, we are to co exist with it, nurture it as it nurtures us as life is circular, not linear and with that parallels are drawn with the people who  are enviromentally aware, the save the planet people who rail against all that business does in it's search for wealth often at the cost of the enviroment, nature and sometimes other people as enviromental abuse will come back to challenge us as the abusers challenge nature,  and that might not be in their time, but in their offsprings time.  So as enviromentally aware consiousness grows in the minds of people, those that need a spiritual belief  are naturally drawn to the Goddess.

The other factor besides just plain free thinking, is rebellion from the status quo, the status quo being the traditional Christianity in it's many forms, which has a history of denying women their place in existence and in a particular part of history, the church saw women as the embodiment of evil, no doubt as a perverse interpretation of the Garden of Eden story, something like, it was Eve's fault we all live in a shit world, or are denied paradise, therefore women are the vessel of evil and so can be abused, put down, trodden on, a religious reason to abuse those phsically weaker than men.

But with some forms of paganism, parallels can be drawn with Buddhism and many who claim to be pagan also edge into Buddhism, or just plain move lock stock and barrel into it, paganism being just a stepping stone, a form of training.

Myself  being pagan, I was once asked what my interpretation of all the pagan gods and goddesses were by a Muslim who didn't understand it and further asked did I actually believe in them. My interpretation was that I believe in history, mankind to become familiar with an aspect, chose to personificate that aspect to gain familiarity, so all the different aspects are familiar personifications of the aspects of us, nature and existence and with all those personifications, there is colour in the belief, differences that can be celebrated differently to maintain the natural balance in nature. That being our mental and physical balance in the nature we are part of, and of course, not forgetting the land, that which feeds, clothes and shelters us, nurture it, and it will continue to nurture us, crap on it, and it will crap on us.

I think a lot of what paganism is, is the celebration of being natural, living with the nature that is ourselves in nature, which is this planet in the universe. If one feels the need to sing or dance, do it, it is in the nature of ourselves as natural beings, don,t let words from the past deny you as who knows, those words might very well be full of shit from a shit mind.


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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/28/2011 11:58:16 PM   
Vendaval


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Fast Reply -

Also keep in mind that ye ole deities become either saints or demons vvhen a nevv civilization & religion set up shop in a conquered territory. A noted example being the Virgin of Guadalupe, based on an Aztec Goddess.


"Our Lady of Guadalupe (Spanish: Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe), also known as the Virgin of Guadalupe (Spanish: Virgen de Guadalupe; Nahuatl: Tonantzin Guadalupe) is a celebrated Catholic icon of the Virgin Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 2:12:58 AM   
tweakabelle


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Thus far in the thread, no one has asked why a God/dess or deity is gendered in the first place? Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?

For believers in an infinite deity (of whatever variety or gender) this issue is even more of a problem, it seems to me. To me, there is an obvious contradiction between a limitless infinity and the limitations of any specific gender.


Edited with a confused expression

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2011 2:17:25 AM >


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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 2:19:52 AM   
Termyn8or


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And why do people think when they "go to heaven" they will be them. Your name, your face, your body including genitals is dead and in a box or bag somewhere. With all the trannies and bis around, it's fairly obvious that "gender" is not necessarily the result of anatomy.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 1/29/2011 2:21:00 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 3:46:06 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?

So they can relate to them.

K.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 3:53:29 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And why do people think when they "go to heaven" they will be them.

Maybe because they believe they are more than simply their name, their face, and their body?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 3:54:01 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 4:12:52 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?

So they can relate to them.

K.




Your response does make sense from a certain perspective. But it seems to me to create more problems than it solves.

One obvious implication is that our conceptions of deities are not realities 'revealed' to humans but constructions and projections by humans. And if this is valid, then what other aspects of our deities are also human constructions and projections ........?

And I won't even begin to address the implications that arise if a person also happens to believe, like so many people do*, that gender is determined by genitals ..... but they aren't pretty and they aren't theological either.......

*Rightly or wrongly, this is a common conception.


Edited with my legs firmly crossed

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2011 4:21:53 AM >


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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 4:27:37 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

One obvious implication is that our conceptions of deities are not realities 'revealed' to humans but constructions and projections by humans.

Of course they are projections. Heaven is within you, etc.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 4:33:32 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 4:41:56 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

One obvious implication is that our conceptions of deities are not realities 'revealed' to humans but constructions and projections by humans.

Of course they are projections. Heaven is within you, etc.

K.





I'm quite happy to go along with your explanation.

However, for followers of most religions involving deities, the implications are pretty serious. Some might say terminal.....


Edited with a sigh of relief

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2011 4:42:42 AM >


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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 4:57:35 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Thus far in the thread, no one has asked why a God/dess or deity is gendered in the first place? Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?



In our language, we use pronouns that are gender specific,  It would be disrespectful to refer to a deity as "it". 




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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 4:59:50 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I'm quite happy to go along with your explanation.

However, for followers of most religions involving deities, the implications are pretty serious. Some might say terminal.....

The implication is that the divine dwells within us, that there is a divine element in our nature, and I don't know of any religion offhand that would consider this "terminal" news.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 5:04:51 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 6:43:59 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I'm quite happy to go along with your explanation.

However, for followers of most religions involving deities, the implications are pretty serious. Some might say terminal.....

The implication is that the divine dwells within us, that there is a divine element in our nature, and I don't know of any religion offhand that would consider this "terminal" news.

K.





I can't say I'd like to be given the task of reconciling the claims that God is a human construction and projection and the divine resides solely within humans with say, conventional Catholic theology. The word heresy springs to mind.



Edited for doctrinal purity and Curia-approved


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2011 6:48:34 AM >


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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 6:46:35 AM   
Aneirin


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Perhaps the gender aspect is because us as mere humans knew the world of nature, life in it's forms that were known about was either male or female and to prosper, it took the joining of the two as equals.

Another aspect with some forms of paganism, is as mentioned, the divine which some other religions seek as it seems off world is in fact in us and around us, the gods and goddesses are aspects of ourselves and the universe. Heaven is here, hell is here, the are all of our making and within ourselves. So if we choose, to see heaven as here, then there is no point living a life hoping we might go to heaven or hell when we die. That being, we look after our enviroment and nature, make it the best we can for ourselves and our offspring and who knows if reincarnation is a fact, we may be be promoting the health of the planet for ourselves in the future.


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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 7:04:47 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?

So they can relate to them.

K.



Kirata has already said what was in my mind.

I think we, as human beings, try so desperately to place labels on EVERYthing. If we cannot label and/or identify on a personal level, we get confused and scared. Our brain/ego seems to be programmed to require that. When we can't accomplish it, we feel personally threatened and attempt to disregard whatever it is that is eluding our attempts to identify.

Personally, I don't think paganism or any other sort of indentifier (goddess, god, etc) worship will be the answer either. Especially when those paths are human lead. Without going into my whole personal beliefs, that would bore anyone that read it to tears, I think the answer will ultimately be found within ourselves, yet apart from ego.

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