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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 7:07:34 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Thus far in the thread, no one has asked why a God/dess or deity is gendered in the first place? Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?



In our language, we use pronouns that are gender specific,  It would be disrespectful to refer to a deity as "it". 




Your explanation may work for the English language. But there are lots of other languages and cultures where different gender arrangements apply. It might be a bit problematic in those cases.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 7:19:15 AM   
0ldhen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Most of these are dual incarnations of Mother, Preserver, Destroyer, no beginning, no end.



Yes, The Maiden, The Mother, The Crone.

All aspects of the eternal Goddess who gave birth, then nurtured, then welcomed back to her breast, all of us.





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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 7:39:24 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The former (that atheism is, as a general rule, less sexist,  etc.) is probably true.


What's your evidence for this statement?




You could start here - http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/10/11/better-off-without-him/

George Monbiot is a leading environmenalist and journalist here in the UK. Gregory Paul, though, is American. Monbiot argues:

. . . But in the current edition of the Journal of Religion and Society, a researcher called Gregory Paul tests the hypothesis propounded by evangelists in the Bush administration, that religion is associated with lower rates of “lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity and abortion”. He compared data from 18 developed democracies, and discovered that the Christian fundamentalists couldn’t have got it more wrong.(6)

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion … None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction.” Within the United States “the strongly theistic, anti-evolution South and Midwest” have “markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the Northeast where … secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms” . . .

Still, no mention of sexism as such. :-)

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/29/2011 7:40:24 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 7:44:09 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Thus far in the thread, no one has asked why a God/dess or deity is gendered in the first place? Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?


Indeed. The more you interrogate the idea, the sillier it seems. If God had a dick, what exactly would he do with it? Is he still a virgin? If not, who has he bonked?

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 8:12:57 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Why do people attribute genders to their deities at all?



Because of the principals each gender represents.

The claim to being the ‘one true God’ is a claim to being the foundation of all other things; which indicates, to me, male.

Also, he looks male; I mean the beard/ mane and all.

Kim


< Message edited by cpK69 -- 1/29/2011 8:13:39 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 9:29:45 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

He compared data from 18 developed democracies, and discovered that the Christian fundamentalists couldn’t have got it more wrong.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with...."

Using Christian Fundamentalism as a stalking horse for religions that worship a creator is evidence of either a stunningly ignorant or dishonest anti-theist bias, or else serious brain disease.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 9:46:13 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 9:47:18 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

He compared data from 18 developed democracies, and discovered that the Christian fundamentalists couldn’t have got it more wrong.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with...."

Using Christian Fundamentalism as a stalking horse for religion in general is evidence of either a stunning anti-theist bias or serious brain disease.

K.



Just to point out that those comments don't represent my views but those of George Monbiot and Gregory Paul respectively, Kirata. One's own opinion on which people exhibit the greatest signs of brain disease, those of theists or anti theists, for example, may vary.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 10:06:44 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Just to point out that those comments don't represent my views but those of George Monbiot and Gregory Paul respectively, Kirata. One's own opinion on which people exhibit the greatest signs of brain disease, those of theists or anti theists, for example, may vary.

Yes, I apologize for any misunderstanding. I was referring to them, not to you. I acknowledge that you were quoting.

Opinions as to why you would post their views, of course, may vary.

K.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 10:32:48 AM   
Chulain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
Because if there is a God, He (or She) probably thinks that His (or Her) religion is not a democracy. In other words, God, being God, makes the rules. (Instead of putting it to a vote)

Says who?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
In our language, we use pronouns that are gender specific,  It would be disrespectful to refer to a deity as "it". 

Disrespectful to whom?


< Message edited by Chulain -- 1/29/2011 10:36:07 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 10:39:43 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I can't say I'd like to be given the task of reconciling the claims that God is a human construction and projection and the divine resides solely within humans with say, conventional Catholic theology. The word heresy springs to mind.

You're adding a word that wasn't there before. My post didn't say "solely".

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 10:44:31 AM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 10:49:01 AM   
Chulain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I can't say I'd like to be given the task of reconciling the claims that God is a human construction and projection and the divine resides solely within humans with say, conventional Catholic theology. The word heresy springs to mind.

OK, I'll do it:

God is a human construction and projection and the divine resides solely within humans, and the superstitious beliefs (e.g., transsubstantiation, miracles) of all so-called major religions are a bunch of hooey.

I'll keep everyone updated on the lightning bolts.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 12:56:13 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I can't say I'd like to be given the task of reconciling the claims that God is a human construction and projection and the divine resides solely within humans with say, conventional Catholic theology. The word heresy springs to mind.

You're adding a word that wasn't there before. My post didn't say "solely".

K.




Fair point. I'm quite happy to remove it.

To re-state:
I can't say I'd like to be given the task of reconciling the claims that God is a human construction and projection and the divine resides within humans with say, conventional Catholic theology. The word heresy springs to mind.

My suspicion is that conventional Catholic theology would have its most serious issues with the first of my claims - that God is a human construction and projection.


Edited first thing in the morning while still half asleep

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2011 1:00:46 PM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 2:26:06 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

My suspicion is that conventional Catholic theology would have its most serious issues with the first of my claims - that God is a human construction and projection.

Probably so, approached in those terms. But we were talking about your claim regarding the implications of deity being a projection (period, not a "construction").

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
for followers of most religions involving deities, the implications are pretty serious. Some might say terminal.....

The implication is that the divine dwells within us, that there is a divine element in our nature, and I don't know of any religion offhand that would consider this "terminal" news.

That said, however, yes I think Catholic theology would have a problem with your, unh, "construction".

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 2:33:35 PM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 2:29:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Opinions as to why you would post their views, of course, may vary.

K.[/font][/size]


Because they helped answer DCNovice's point. DCNovice's questioned the view, earlier, that atheists are, as a general rule, less sexist than the religious. I cited the only extant piece of widescale empirical research that related to the subject. This research had concluded that, versus the unexamined but strongly held view of the evangelists in the Bush regime, 'Within the United States “the strongly theistic, anti-evolution South and Midwest” have “markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the Northeast where … secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms” . . .

These figures, to me, hint that it might be legitimate to hypothesise that sexism is, in fact, more likely to be seen amongst those who are religious. But we don't know, of course, because there isn't the empirical research to support that claim. However, there may be empirical evidence that supports the contrary claim, that religious people are in general equally as non-sexist as atheists, or indeed that supports the claim that they're in fact *less* sexist.

If so, could you cite, here?










< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/29/2011 3:05:35 PM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 3:18:40 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

That said, however, yes I think Catholic theology would have a problem with your, unh, "construction".

K.[/font][/size]


Just as some might have a problem with Catholic theologists' construction of Tweakabelle's view as a "construction".

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 4:51:45 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

My suspicion is that conventional Catholic theology would have its most serious issues with the first of my claims - that God is a human construction and projection.

Probably so, approached in those terms.But we were talking about your claim regarding the implications of dei ty being a projection (period, not a "construction").




The terms 'construction' and 'projection' were introduced simultaneously by me in post #33.

I'm not sure that the difference matters much in this instance. Any projection of human gender onto a God/dess figure seems to me to necessarily be a construction.

That clarified, I'm glad we could finally reach agreement.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2011 5:02:47 PM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 5:18:06 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

These figures, to me, hint that it might be legitimate to hypothesise that sexism is, in fact, more likely to be seen amongst those who are religious. But we don't know, of course, because there isn't the empirical research to support that claim. However, there may be empirical evidence that supports the contrary claim, that religious people are in general equally as non-sexist as atheists, or indeed that supports the claim that they're in fact *less* sexist.

If so, could you cite, here?

I don't accept the question as valid. In fact, I find it ignorant and offensive.

Firstly, it casts "religion" and "religiosity" in monolithic terms, and constitutes a bald attempt at stereotyping. Religions differ in their teachings, if they contain any at all, with regard to this subject. And even within a single religion, there will be factions between which views will vary. Additionally, religious customs tend to reflect the culture in which they are found. Correct behavior for a Muslim woman in Saudi Arabia, for example, will be different from what is acceptable among most Muslims living in the United States.

Secondly, there is the matter of "sexism" itself. Many women all around the world, including in the United States, feel happy and fulfilled living in the traditional relationships defined by their cultures and religions. To categorize them as ignorant (or worse, willing) victims of sexist oppression for this cause reflects the profound hubris and fundamentalist zeal with which some people are willing to smugly elevate their own opinions to the status of divinely revealed truth.

So no, I won't be playing this stupid little game with you. Thanks anyway.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2011 5:56:06 PM >

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 5:55:59 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I don't accept the question as valid. In fact, I find it ignorant and offensive.


I'm sorry to hear that, Kirata. I'd developed this feeling that you always felt yourself equal to any charge that any scientist brought against religion, even if all you could muster against a scientist's findings was an ad hominem attack like that of your earlier comment, '"Using Christian Fundamentalism as a stalking horse for religions that worship a creator is evidence of either a stunningly ignorant or dishonest anti-theist bias, or else serious brain disease."

quote:

Secondly, there is the matter of "sexism" itself. Many women all around the world, including in the United States, feel happy and fulfilled living in the traditional relationships defined by their cultures and religions. To dismiss them as ignorant victims of sexist oppression reflects the profound hubris and fundamentalist zeal with which some people are willing to smugly elevate their differing view to the status of a divinely revealed truth.

So no, I won't be playing this stupid little game with you. Thanks anyway.


But I haven't dismissed such women as 'ignorant victims of sexist oppression'. Not ever. That's a slant that you've put on what I've said and bears no relation to my views. We non-religious types, we're not all the same, you know.

If you can deal with me, and those like me, without smugness and sarcasm, I'll listen. You have no idea how much I'd like to hear the views of those who have something interesting to say on religion, mysticism . . . even 'The Truth'.



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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 5:57:25 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Any projection of human gender onto a God/dess figure seems to me to necessarily be a construction.

We project the divine within us onto the "outside," that's the projection part. Attributes of gender, a jealous nature, etc., are the construction part.

My view, anyway.

K.

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RE: Where is the Goddess in spirituality? - 1/29/2011 6:02:16 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
I just find it hard to believe that God is all "He".I would think that there should be some balance when it comes to spirituality.


There is a balance.

It's all bullshit.

There is no god, or goddess.

Just live your life, be happy, make others happy, and then die and be at peace.

Happy to help ;)

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