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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 11:45:53 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

but they're still safewords that get you, the Top, to check in.

They are just words, not safewords. A safeword is a specific thing for a specific purpose. Words are good for everyone, safewords are good for those who do resistance and role play.

Taggard

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 11:54:36 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Are you saying that safe words shouldn't be used at all or just that they shouldn't be relied upon as the sole means of communication?

I am saying they should not be used at all, with the exception of role play and resistance play, where it is important to the bottom that they be allowed to say "no" or "stop" and not have the top stop.

Again, I think this type of play is a more advanced kind of play, and should not be attempted by novices without a bit of education.

Taggard

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 12:06:02 PM

MsMacComb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Safewords should not be used by novices. They should not be treated as some magic safety net. They should be used as the tool they were created to be, and nothing more.
Taggard

They were designed as a tool for safety. Its appaling to me how people take something so simple and twist it into some huge complex thing based on nothing.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 12:53:53 PM

Nuke718

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For what it's worth, thanks for this thread. I have been away a while, and it's good to see sensible discussion on this topic. Safe Words, much like SSC has a magical meaning to sooo many people. If they subscribe to both habitually they assume nothing can go wrong. Saving the SSC discussion for another day, let me say that I use safewords at all levles of interaction when it is requested by the other party.

BUT I do not, as a top, rely soley on them. I watch and listen, and pay attention in a scene. But before that I want to know something about my partner and the way they react in certain circumstances. I don't demand safewords because I don't build scenes that stop doesn't mean just that. As a bottom, I never allow myself to get so disconected from things that I can't say "fuckin stop it!"

I won't go so far as to say no novices should use them, but I do think that NOBODY should use them as a crutch, or an excuse for shoddy communication skills.

Nuke }:-

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 12:56:01 PM

Proprietrix

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Just thought I'd throw in my "safewords are no replacement for communication" opinion.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 1:00:16 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

What part of your brain evaluating capability do you hold back from your scene with your Master to assess whether you should safe-word or not?

You'll have to wait until my ovary's learn to communicate as this has zero to do with my brain and everything to do with my disease.

quote:

Why can't you surrender and trust your Master with that responsibility?

My ovaries won't submit to Him and I can't make them. I sub to them without consent. I wish it were different, but it's not. It's just the way it is.

quote:

Why don't you, or he, think he is capable?

Capable of what? Domming my endometriosis? As soon as medical science comes up with a cure, I'm sure I'll be the first to know since I'm on the endo mailing list. I'm not certain a cure will be found before I die, but there is always hope.

This has nothing to do with my brain or how it functions or thinks. There are no subtle changes in my body when endo attacks. It is sudden, without warning. There are no 'signs' to watch for, there are no precautions to take against it. One second I am fine, the next I am on the floor. There are times when the pain has been so intense, I've been in the middle of a sentence and the next instant I'm passed out on the floor. It's the reason I don't like to drive and only do so if I'm fairly certain that I'm not going to be in my ovulation cycle. My cycle hit me two days early, so I was at the store, by myself, when I got the attack yesterday. Fortunately, it was a fairly mild attack and only put me to my knees in tears and I didn't pass out. The other thing with endo, once the attack is over, I'm hurting, but not incapacitated from it. That's all there is to it and it is the sort of pain I wouldn't wish on an Iraqi terrorist. I'm going to chalk this up to your inability to understand what endometriosis is and leave it at that. I don't hold you accountable for being ignorant here as you are a man and can't possibly understand what endo does to your body nor how quickly it does it.

Celeste

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 1:17:00 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

1) It doesn't sound like you are a novice.

I'd say that's a pretty safe assumption. ;)

quote:

2) If you had fallen to your knees and yelled "Stop", do you think your "Himself" would have continued?

He's never stopped before, so I doubt that word would stop him now.

quote:

If he would not stop, even though you yelled "stop", you must realize you are doing a lot more than just a S&M session, right? You have ventured into the realm of resistance play, for which safewords are entirely appropriate and neccessary.

Absolutely. We both adore resistance play, but the safeword is in place strictly because of my disease and the simple fact of the matter that it's not possible to look at someone who's in the middle of being bullwhipped and know if its the disease which is causing the reaction or if it's the pain of the bullwhip which is causing the reaction. Anyone who thinks they can tell the difference doesn't have endometriosis and speaks from hearsay at best or they're just lying, either to themselves or to their partner. I have never had to use the safeword because I communicate with Himself exactly where my cycle is, in fact, even if I didn't, he has access to my endo diary and can see the pattern with his own eyes as much as it can be predicted anyway. Endo is not predictable past a certain generality of the cycle of menses. I've been deep into subspace when I've gotten an attack of endo and no matter how high and fast my endorphins were running, they can't compare to the pain and speed of endometriosis. Subspace one second, dragged kicking and screaming into the real world the next. Totally sucks.

quote:

It sounds like you kids know each other pretty well, and that you have enough experience to use safewords appropriately...all of which has nothing to do with my original post.

::chuckles:: Well, we're hardly kids, but point taken.

quote:

Novices should not use safewords, unless they really have studied up on them and understand how and when and where to use them.

I didn't know what a safeword was until the Internet, but it happened to fit in well with my particular medical needs and Himself insists on having it in place until he finishes that Shirley Ghostman correspondence course on mind and ovary reading. ;)

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 1:38:49 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
There are no shortcuts to trust. There are shortcuts to play. Have fun, play with safe-words, but don't expect them to protect you.

It's been awhile since we've had this debate. Let's see how many pages we get this time.

Well, I can't see why the first statement above doesn't short-circuit the possibility of a lengthy thread.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 1:49:08 PM

Sensualips

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quote:

I'm not sure why I feel like banging my head on this wall today,

A masochistic streak?

When I was new (okay, newer) I got about seventy three lectures on safe words and safe calls. Mostly I stared and nodded, but what I was thinking about was Dumbo and the magic feather. Only in reverse.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 2:59:59 PM

Mercnbeth

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Celeste,
Thank you for not seeing this as a challenge to your Master and you. Based upon this and other posts you've made I respect your relationship; if I implied otherwise I apologize.

As with childbirth no man can appreciate the pains of being a woman; so obviously I don't relate to the pain or the suddenness of the onset. I sure it's similar to when beth tells me she's in pain outside my control and I ask; "Not in a good way, huh?" Continuing to read this thread, as erin said, your outcry could have been anything and your Master would have gotten the idea. Within the micro-second of the whip being pulled back, I'd bet your Master would have observed your body language, or your grimace, that was already shouting your safe-word long before your lips formed the word.

You may have a safe-word as a back up mental crutch, but your relationship doesn't sound like it needs one. Your Master knows your body, the way your muscles tighten one way in anticipation of his touch, and quite another at the pain of endometriosis.

Everyone should be so fortunate to have such a relationship. You're safe-word is not serving the same purpose as it takes on to a novice. A novice thinks; "as long as I have a safe-word I'm invincible." In that context, as Taggard correctly points out, having safe-words is more dangerous than not having safe-words. To you, in the context your describe, its serving the same purpose as saying; "DAMN IT" or something worse, when you stub your toe; albeit exponentially more painful.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 3:21:26 PM

TNstepsout

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quote:

I am saying they should not be used at all, with the exception of role play and resistance play, where it is important to the bottom that they be allowed to say "no" or "stop" and not have the top stop.

Well I'm not sure I agree then. I think of them as an extra layer of safety, sort of like airbags in a car. A novice may not be reckless, but they ARE novices, and as such, things can go wrong. I don't see a problem in having that extra level of safety in place just as long as it isn't seen as a license to be careless.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 3:39:21 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

A novice may not be reckless, but they ARE novices, and as such, things can go wrong. I don't see a problem in having that extra level of safety in place just as long as it isn't seen as a license to be careless.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 4:13:08 PM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I can't even begin to count though, how many times I have been told that I'm wrong from people who have been brainwashed into believing they need them.

I think that is really what spurred this. So many times, on these threads, they begin with a simple question like "should a new slave use safewords?" The old-timers tend to ignore such questions, having seen them a thousand times, and the pages fill up with those that shout "USE SAFEWORDS OR EVERYONE WILL DIE!!!" It isn't until page 5 that those hwo really understand pipe in and try to set it straight.

So here is my attempt to battle that...yeah...whatever. *smile*

Taggard

I think I finally get the point of your arguement. You are not against the dominant's responsibilites to keep the submissive safe, you are not against allowing a submissive to speak up if it is too much. Your stance is that safe words are a poor way to communicate because they muddy the waters. You prefer words that have real meaning rather than code words. (I really do want to understand, so let me know if I'm off base here.)
Your next point is that a safe word will not save my life or keep me from harm if I have made an error in judgment and submitted to the wrong person.

I was a novice not so long ago (3 years +). I did not know what I liked or could enjoy. I could not consent to an activity if I had never tried it, but I could consent to try. What was important to me was a dominant's reassurance that he would pay attention to my reactions, ask me how I was doing, and stop if I said it was too much. Some dominants preferred the use of a safe word, some preferred the 'stop means stop.' Either way worked for me because I was careful to have a lot of discussion ahead of time and they were willing to be patient with my inexperience.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 4:39:20 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Novices should not use safewords, unless they really have studied up on them and understand how and when and where to use them.

Taggard

        I must disagree with you on this. While you make some very valid points (and I will be adjusting how I reply to those newer than myself), your assertion that resistance play is somehow restricted to the more experienced is (IMO) complete crap. I've been hearing "no" and "stop" from the earliest scenes I did. That's the headspace we like to create. I hear those words every time I grab a handful of hair or push her up against the wall. After a year together, I'm much more in tune to her body language and changes in her tone of voice and that last time something had to change in a scene, we did it with a simple "this isn't working." But the 'magic word' was there and there can't be any confusion if she ever decides to use it.

        That said, I have precisely zero faith in it once the play gets heavy. All the responsibility for her safety is on me.

        And then there is the other reason I believe everybody from the rawest newbie to the most experienced and extreme players should have a safeword on the shelf somewhere. When police officers get BDSM awareness training (rare but it does happen), one of the first things they are taught to look for is the presence of a safeword. If both partners are able to provide that when some nosey/concerned neighbor calls them to your door, it might be the difference between an uncomfortable half hour in your living room and a domestic violence charge.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 4:41:58 PM

ladylexington

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I wholeheartly agree that safe words cannot replace the top's responsibility to read the bottom's visual, emotional, and spoken cues. However, in most situations, I think novices are better off with safe words than without them. I've also found safe words particularly useful during mutual exploration (e.g., bondage labs) and play parties. I've also employ them to help a submissive feel more secure -- and taken them away to heighten a submissive's anxiety later.

They are not a panacea, but nothing is.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 4:51:50 PM

Rayne58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I was a novice not so long ago (3 years +). I did not know what I liked or could enjoy. I could not consent to an activity if I had never tried it, but I could consent to try. What was important to me was a dominant's reassurance that he would pay attention to my reactions, ask me how I was doing, and stop if I said it was too much. Some dominants preferred the use of a safe word, some preferred the 'stop means stop.' Either way worked for me because I was careful to have a lot of discussion ahead of time and they were willing to be patient with my inexperience.

I was a novice an even shorter time ago than you (just over 2 years). Master has always given me safe words (yellow and red), because I had very little experience of even much sexual play let alone BDSM. I did not know how I was going to react to much of what we were going to be doing.

It helped us to develop an honest and trusting relationship - yes He could read my body's reactions but how can He read my emotions? I was overwhelmed with both physical and emotional sensations that I became frightened of sometimes. I have called a red a few times because, yes I became afraid, not of Him but MYSELF. It still happens now and then, and I know He would rather I used the safe word and stopped things rather than carry on.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:05:07 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

Continuing to read this thread, as erin said, your outcry could have been anything and your Master would have gotten the idea. Within the micro-second of the whip being pulled back, I'd bet your Master would have observed your body language, or your grimace, that was already shouting your safe-word long before your lips formed the word.

You know in the circus where the 'knife thrower' blindfolds himself then tosses a knife at his assistant? Often times Himself likes to single tail me while he's wearing a blindfold. He doesn't always visually observe me so relies on sound. When sound is the only clue as to what's happening with my insides and being the verbal creature which I am, there are few options available. I wasn't kidding on the thread where I stated I could very well start singing the Star Spangled Banner during an S/m scene.. I've actually done that. ::chuckles:: Anything might come out of my mouth, literally, anything. Also, a lot, and I mean a lot of our more primative encounters start in the middle of the night when he wakes me up out of a dead sleep and it would be rare for the lights to go on, so we play, literally, in the dark quite often. I know we're not the only ones who do this.

The safeword for us - It's truly for emergencies, in our case a medical emergency because we tend to get a bit.. um.. rambunctious in our S/m. When Himself is blindfolded, he has me count. He gains the clues he needs on what's happening by my ability to continue counting coherently. I quite often trance out to subspace during a single tailing and he can hear me starting to go there. He'll remove the blindfold at that point, so he is pretty tuned in with what's happening. Endo shuts that all down in a split second.

quote:

I'd further argue that if you've never gone into a session with a person without a safe-word you have never experienced submission.

This is the sentence with which I take exception. I was diagnosed with endo before I ever met himself. I happened to have an attack of it before the first time we had an S/m scene together so he saw first hand what it did to me. The safeword has always been in place. To say that he's never experienced my submission because of it however, would be incorrect. There are exceptions to every rule with the exception of the death I would think. So perhaps that statement shouldn't be read literally as I read it, but in good conscience I couldn't allow it to stand on it's own either. There are many things in life over which we have no control. I think that needs to be acknowledged and blanket statements should be avoided as much as possible. It's entirely possible to experience the depths of submission, the utter devotion of letting go to another's power and still have a safeword. The safeword is for when the disease has taken over control of the scene.. it doesn't mean that I'm in control of it.

Celeste

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:11:33 PM

Dustyn

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Uhmm, not to break a bubble or anything like that, but the below list are all examples of safewords... Safewords are, in the purest form, a means of communicating information shortly and sussinctly... There is always room for a screw up in this type of relationship, so anything is truly better than nothing... only way to stay truly safe is never put yourself in a position where you could get injured, but, well, when one is tied up like a goose for christmas dinner, it's kind of hard to NOT be in a position to get hurt.

No all powerful being is going to swoop down and save you if you utter a safeword. Knots will not just *POOF* untie themselves and buckles will not magically loosen themselves. Safewords, though, WILL help alert the person(s) in charge that "Hey, there's a problem here that I need your help with".

Let a little air out of that ego there, mate, and you might find things a bit easier to deal with... but that's just my opinion...

- Dustyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

For a novice, simple rules like “no means no”, “stop means stop”, and “ouch means ouch (though ouch does not mean stop)” are much more useful than any collection of safewords.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:14:45 PM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

And while you are thinking about safe-words, whether you are being reckless or not, things going wrong; is there any room left to enjoy the moment? These are things you should be doing while driving a car or operating heavy machinery. The goal here is to relax and have fun! Isn't it?

Consider, if you will, the mind set of the novice submissive. I was novice not so long ago. At the age of 50, I decided to step from just thinking about it to actual experience. I longed for it, had wanted it for most of my life. What I did not know for sure was whether the fantasy would translate into reality.
Skipping past the false starts, and here I am, outside the door of the first dominant I have agreed to submit to for an afternoon. We have discussed and communicated, we have set parameters, I have a safe caller, etc.
I am shaking like a leaf, taking deep slow breaths..........relax? I have forgotten how to! WHAT IF......careens through my mind; what if I don't like it, what if he doesn't stop if I say stop, what if I have made a serious error in judgment and he is not a good person? Have fun? I'm supposed to have fun???? I'm scared out of my mind! I'm ready to yell the safe word, maybe I should just go home, no I want this, yes but............Keep in mind this is all before I have stepped inside. He opened the door and I did take that step and a new wonderful world opened up to me. He was dominant, he expected my best, he was 'mean' but he was also patient. He accepted the fact that I had no experience and was willing to go slow. He taught me lessons that day which I have carried with me since. Did I have a good time? My goal, that day, was to get through it, to get experience and to live to tell the tale. Yes, I did have a good time despite my fears, despite the fact the stop word was at the forefront of my brain. I didn't use it, I didn't need to, but it was THERE, and I still came away exhilirated because I finally knew for sure this is what I am, this is what I want.
Granted, a stop word is not a guarantee of anything. All I'm asking is that you try to understand what it is like to be new to BDSM, to want something so badly that the safe word is the only thing you have to cling, white-knuckled to, to get past the abject fear.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:21:18 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

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Normally I would say its individual in regard to scene and relationship, however you are specifically referring to novices. One of the questions I ask any novice or sub in training is on the use of safewords. Many are more comfortable with the knowledge that they have them available if they wish to. That being said I also know after this many years as both a Pro Domme and lifestyle Domme that it is My responsibility to be vigilant and know when "enough is enough". I explain to them that novices unfamiliar with subspace and the affects of it aren't aware at the time that the simple ability to even form the idea of the safeword in their head (let alone voice it at its very heights ) may be impossible. Therefore it is absolutely My responsibilty to be aware and know when to ease off or discontinue regardless of their use or not. There are certain scenes where "no, no dont" means exactly the opposite such as in play rape, forced bi and abduction scenes especially. Through facial reaction, bodily reaction etc....the ability to know whether no means no is present without the use of a safeword. Just my opinion....Sure I have them available if preferred but I don't rely on them as the end all be all of constraint in a scene.

Ms Jo

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Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

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