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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 7:38:27 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:


Could you explain to me just how they add a layer of safety to any scene that does not involve resistance or role play?

Can you please explain how they add anything but a layer of obfuscation to normal communication for no other purpose than to satisfy the safety police?

When used outside the realm of resistance or role play, how do they provide anything at all?

Examples from your own experience (or things you actually witnessed) would really be appreciated.

Taggard



I think others with far more experience than I have explained it better than I can. As a novice, your target audience, I feel that safe words are a very simple, straight forward, instant kind of communication that take NO interpretation and can't be misunderstood by anyone. For me that is important. In the few experiences I've had, all of the new physical and emotional sensations were quite overwhelming and it was very hard to communicate effectively. Add to that the fact that as a novice I had little knowledge of the kind of terminology an experienced Top was used to working with. I did my best to communicate well, but it was still difficult at times.

Yeah, I have some examples, but it's personal and I don't want to talk about it. In short, a scene went very bad and it was 100% the fault of miscommunication. Had I had safe words and been encouraged to use them it would have saved us both a lot of grief.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 7:55:20 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Great thread, Taggard.

It has been refreshing to read through these posts, after being called insane, stupid and having an irresponsible Master on previous safeword threads!  I was beginning to think I was really abnormal for not having one. (Now I know I'm just abnormal for other reasons)

I was very much a novice when I met my Master.  He was my first "real" real-time Master (the one prior to him doesn't count).  We spent so much time in conversation before our first meeting - everything was covered.  I trusted him, without ever having met him.  He would not allow me to serve him in person until he was certain I could do so without  a fear-clouded mind.

I was not given nor allowed a safe word.  He did not play hard with me the first time.  He spent that night studying me, and learning my responses and reactions and cries and squeals and trembles and winces, as he introduced me to so many new things.  I was with him 13 hours straight and he learned me like a book.  There was one incident where something he did ignited an intense and very new pain for me, and my cries changed instantly.  Before I had finished that gasp, he had stopped and redirected his attention.  All night, he learned me while gaining more and more of my confidence and trust, by pushing me based on my reactions.

It is not up to me to determine when Master stops something.  Maybe he wants me to experience a particular excrutiating pain.  Maybe he wants me to shake in trepidation over something he does.  When I have had to alarm him, for example, that my ankle was about to break, I did so.  When I have been scared about something, I cried out that I was scared.  If something hurt too much, I cried that I didn't think I could take it anymore.  He either continued anyway, stopped, or redirected.  The one time I  panicked, he saw it in my eyes, in the way I stiffened, in the sudden change of my vocals...He grabbed me and put me at his feet, held my face to his, and looked at me, saying, "Talk to me." 

In the most extreme of scenarios, which I will not post here, I may have safe-worded out, as I felt pushed over the top.  But he knew my boundaries and strengths better than I did, and he did not pull me from the scenario.  When all was said and done, it was a life-changing, submission-deepening event, bringing me to a beautiful place I never would have experienced, had I cried safety.

I trust him. Completely.  He knows what affects me and how, and what will bring me to the places I need to go.

I do not condemn others' use of one, although I have been condemned for not having one.  But I don't need one, as I do not have medical issues which would create damage and confusion, and I am owned by a Master who relies on his knowledge of me to decide how far to go and when I may be in trouble.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 8:05:00 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:


Safewords should not be used by novices...


is only continuing to spin misconceptions.


If we were to say "Safewords should not be used by novices, except for resistance play", would you then agree?



Well I am not sure what you consider Resistance play... but I wouldn't restrict anyone from safewords/signals just because they happen to be novice.  I think it is more important to consider the experience and type of scene one is doing

consider... a person that is gagged... thou verbal communication is impossible for many gags... signals are not.  and a simple signal does equate to verbal communication that could occur within a scene.  Like a safe "word"... signals are actaully communicated prior to a scene and understood message, information is being communicated by the word or signal.  Using a gag... doesn't equate to Resistence play in my books.

do you consider a humilation scene as resistance play... I don't.  what about bondage?  my alandra has a very difficult time communicating when she is bound heavily.  she gets all dreamy and well she says a sentence ... only problem is.. only one or may two words are actually spoken... the rest are well drift in subspace land.  I can't tell you how many times that i have had my girls tell me that they told me this in play and find out that no.. you only thought it... the words didn't come!  This even occurs in simple plays sometimes.  sometimes a person becomes distracted by to much talking.  For some bottoms, they quiet verbally and reach a nice meditative state this way.  They are very aware of their surroundings but find alots of verbal actually stops them from enjoying themselves in the play.  For alot of new people the ability to just relax and not have to or expect to talk allows them to flow nicer in the play and as experience grows they can flow easier into the play with a huge problem.  All these people, a simple safe word... be it Stop, No, Red, Pepper, Fuck  or whatever can communicate a message that has been previously talked about.

Now... finally thoughs... I HATE THE TERM "SAFE WORDS"... I perfer to consider them as trigger words or signals.  In fact that is how I manage my play... I learn and watch for the Triggers that send me a message of  what is occuring with a person in play.  I have taken a few people right off the rack so to speak as being very new to BDSM.  I don't use Safe words... I use Triggers!  verbal, and physical triggers!  Triggers that send a predetermined message as well as triggers that convey a possible group of meanings.  Experience has taught me alot on how to read my bottoms.  I find alot of times that my play causes my bottoms to become completely unable to used Trigger words and even signals... or as others might call a safe word.

I believe that your very right that a person should not rely on safewords.  However, not alot of people will do what I do and cause the type of reactions that I cause.  The first play experience that denika had was for all measures was a very light learning experience.  It was with someone else and she could of talked very coherently the whole time.  she has only played with me since and by the second play with me her words well was gone.  no talking and the thinking was somewhat of a challenge.  My point is.. not everyone plays like you or I.  How you play affects how you would see the use of safe words.... your experience that your shared... showed an over reliance of safewords.... a mistake that is all to common for many people, particularly newbies.  I applaud your desire to share this experience so that others that are new don't make the same mistake that you did.  However, that doesn't equate that safe words should not be used by newbies.  I think it is much more... "DON"T RELY ONLY ON SAFEWORD! TRIGGERS ETC... in making a decision of playing, pausing or stopping the play!  Be you a Newbie or an old fart at this!  Rely on one's judgement and experience... do some deep consideration of the consequences and risks of the play one is doing etc.  be it resistance play, role play, humiliation, mind fucks Bondage whatever one is doing.  Consider the risks and what one should do to minimize them to the acceptable level. consider the experience of the person your playing with etc etc etc.... and the list goes on.

Use them... Don't use them... just don't expect them to be a guarantee of safety... that to me is the big misconception for many!... they think they are safe.... well they are not... People's choices will make them safe or not safe....

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 8:16:11 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		But if we gave up safewords as a 'one true way' how in the world could we be politically correct enough for the vanilla's to accept us?!?  <major eye roll>

Shall we rant about ssc, too!?!  :)

Anytime somebody gives their power away to a mindless mantra, be is ssc, safewords, "true" dominance or submission, whatever the latest craze is in 'the right way' it's going to inevitably be a cluster fuck.

The point is to THINK and be personally responsible.  Everything else is just about technique.  But if someone is the type to take a guideline and turn it into some self rightous, self indulgent bludgeoning device without more individual thought than 'it's what all the websites say' - well then they have more fundamental issues than safewords and have lessons I don't particularly care to wade through (again)..



_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 8:25:40 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Everyone should be so fortunate to have such a relationship. You're safe-word is not serving the same purpose as it takes on to a novice. A novice thinks; "as long as I have a safe-word I'm invincible." In that context, as Taggard correctly points out, having safe-words is more dangerous than not having safe-words. To you, in the context your describe, its serving the same purpose as saying; "DAMN IT" or something worse, when you stub your toe; albeit exponentially more painful.


this is where i agree that it is dangerous for a novice sub to use safewords as well.... and why i say i have been fortunate.  yes, i haven't used my safewords with a caring dom.   my "first" r/t dom  didn't even go over safewords or any such thing with me (though i knew of them and what they were) and beg as i did, he was relentless and unmerciful and i paid dearly for it and that was after several months of knowing and playing with each other. but because i don't cry during a scene... my begging and plea's were pointless. nothing i said mattered, not even the safewords that i knew.  safewords....are really nothing to a novice but a crutch to believing it will stop.  yes.... dumbo's feather so to speak.  good one Sensualips.  we live, we learn, some quick, some slower, but it all comes down to whether or not you can trust your whole being to the one you surrender to.  safewords or not.  i do believe in being pushed to the limits...and have been fascinated that when being dommed, true Masters recognize the tale tell signs of body language and have the wisdom to say when enough is enough.  but again to the novice Doms playing with novice subs.... showing concern by asking for feedback during play is not without it's advantages.

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 9:04:09 PM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sylphgossamer

open communication coupled with my dominant knowing and watching out for my reactions and changes has always served me much more than any safeword could have. i've not used a safeword, and have been fortunate in my choices of whom i decided to be with instead.

 
 
  my experience has been the same, 

(in reply to sylphgossamer)
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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 9:26:20 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz
Shall we rant about ssc, too!?!  :)



I'm saving that wall to bang my head against for another day. *wink*

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 9:26:43 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Never said that the OP was saying safewords are bad things, but stating flat out that they should only be used in certain circumstances is a load of horse manure from the south forty.

One of my submissives had the safeword 'popcorn'.  Not something that will show up in any given conversation involving a scene, and definately not in the middle of things, so to speak.  Yes, I kept a ready eye on her, and knew her reactions fairly well, but the instant she said 'popcorn', everything would be paused until the problem was rectified.

Saying a safeword is not a pro-active action.  It won't prevent damage, injury or even discomfort.  Does honking your horn in the car create some magical barrier between you and the moron swerving into your lane?  No, it DOES, however, alert the yutz that he's too close and needs to do something about it.

Safewords are required in any play I participate in.  I am falty at times and don't notice every single detail of every single second that I have my eyes open.  They are the horn that will let me know I'm drifting.  They are just as much of a protection for me as they are the other person.  If you don't want to use one, that's perfectly fine.  You do you're thing, and I'll do my thing.  I've never once put someone in the hospital during a scene, or even so much as split the skin on accident (blood play doesn't count since it's intentional).  Why?  Because I pay attention, listen and most of all, require the other person to holler out when something isn't feeling right.  I'm not comfortable chancing missing one little signal that could be the difference between a bruise and split skin.

I am not all powerful, all knowing or a mind reader.  I constantly ask if things are okay, if bonds are too tight, is it starting to hurt too much, so on and so forth.  But there is NOTHING wrong in my mind with someone else saying 'Woah, I need a break'.

And out comes 'popcorn'.

- Dustyn


quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten


If a person relies on a safeword (be they a sub or Dom(me)) instead of learning to recognize other signals being sent... how safe is the play really?
Why not learn the non-verbal signals and changes in voice that your partner exhibits in play first? Until you know your partner quite well, it is silly to assume that you can read their verbal and non-verbal cues. Focus on getting to know them, then decide whether the "safe words" will even be useful or appropriate for you.
I really believe that the message is not "safe words are bad!" the message is to use them as the tools they are... and don't rely solely on them to keep you alive and well.

kitten





< Message edited by Dustyn -- 5/3/2006 9:32:06 PM >

_____________________________

Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children.

Murderer?! Murderer! Let me tell you something about murder. It's fun; it's easy; you gonna learn ALL about it. - Tin Tin

Can you be more amusing?

(in reply to quietkitten)
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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 9:39:20 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz
Shall we rant about ssc, too!?!  :)



I'm saving that wall to bang my head against for another day. *wink*

Taggard



I think it was done last week - - you missed it!

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 9:41:19 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:


Shall we rant about ssc, too!?!  :)



I'm saving that wall to bang my head against for another day. *wink*

Taggard



When we get to 'that' thread, I'll bang my head on the wall with you. ;)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 10:17:02 PM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Safewords are fine and dandy and have a place.
I do feel however that a Master/Mistress should be able to read body language
and know when enough is enough with a novice and not have to use a safeword.

I encourage submissives to use them,but when they are new they have to be taught to
do so.I know from experience that some are nervous/worried that they may let Mistress down,so they dont speak up when they should.Thats why its important to be able to read body language.

For Myself I always stop when I hear an "ouch or stop" and take a minute to assess the situation.
Even a gasp or a jump will get My attention,so that I ask them if their okay.

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to peasantsub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 10:55:49 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Figure you do yer thing, I'll do my things and we'll both be happy... just don't browbeat me about how right you are because it's how you do it...  that's a sure way to get me to mock you... you should see how badly I abuse the local religious nuts when I get the chance... LOL

- Dustyn


_____________________________

Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children.

Murderer?! Murderer! Let me tell you something about murder. It's fun; it's easy; you gonna learn ALL about it. - Tin Tin

Can you be more amusing?

(in reply to MistressSassy66)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 11:02:52 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:


For Myself I always stop when I hear an "ouch or stop" and take a minute to assess the situation.
Even a gasp or a jump will get My attention,so that I ask them if their okay.


Does that ever distract you from your head space? Do your bottoms get distracted by being constantly questioned for every little gasp or jump?

I think it would ruin S/m for me to be continually questioned like that, but I don't know. Himself doesn't do it.

Just curious.

Celeste

edit to correct typo

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 5/3/2006 11:34:25 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to MistressSassy66)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 11:20:23 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear ownedgirlie, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Lovely post and so true of most Masters/Mistresses in having a brand new “slave” and or “submissive” at their site of scenes. Each slave is different in their body language and their uttered sounds.

This is what a wonderful relationship begins with. Slowly, learning all about you. However, I also keep in mind those Dominants and submissive/slaves that have no solid relationships and or have many sporadic partners, exposure and opportunities.

This is especially evident at clubs or meet and greet clubs/parties and the like. Basic negotiations happen at best and for some eager, “Lets play” is all that is said.

Patience is not a virtue followed by individuals often, be it dominant and or submissive. Thus, my concern that some communication and, as one individual mentioned about resistance play, e.g. torture, interrogation and kidnap scenes would encompass; to which common words of “No,” and such is part of the scene’s resistance but, would confuse the scene and be prone to miscommunication and a scene ruined. So, I do understand in those circumstances of resistance scenes; that code words and or code sounds, such as safe sounds; e.g. humming the anthem or a odd ball song, as not to be confused with ordinary humming; to alert the dominant much as a safe word.

Each scene poses different approaches as to have an experience where the back up communication need never be deployed and or used. These are successful scenes.
Just like an emergency brake on an automobile; it is there “just in case” but, rarely used unless on an incline as to increase the car’s ability to stay put and put less stress on the transmission.

That said, I am hopefully seen as attempting to include the wide range of those in the scene and not exclude any opportunity to address points of thoughtful consideration.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/4/2006 12:00:02 AM   
Sirandlittle1


Posts: 538
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		When you are new to play, EVERYTHING is just soooo intense. Even wearing a collar could drop me. But we were both new to each other, and basically new to bdsm play, and both needed to learn.
However. Although we played within what might be termed safer grounds to begin with, very early into our relationship, he hit a hot button. One i myself was not aware of, one that he could not see my reaction as i was facing away from him and head first into the bed. It was something as simple as applying a peg to my labia. Not extreem play, but i had my most extreem reaction from that technique, i simply fell to pieces. And safeworded. So id disaggree that you must get to know each other first. Sometimes, we cannot predict our reactions at a given time.

The other objection i have to stuff mentioned is the use of the word 'should'. People 'should' behave in a way that satisfies both theirs and their partners needs, no matter what the 'community' thinks. The 'community' is not 'in' my relationship, they therefor cannot judge us correctly, so any judgement is worth jack shit in my opinion.
The protocol, and lets face it, that is all it is, is a safe word system is obeyed by all in public clubs. I agree, it is not going to garauntee someone's safety, but it will help if your playing at a club as a newbie, onlookers, are likely to inform a DM if this word goes ignored, or intervene themselves possibly. You have to have some safegaurds out there when you are new. This is a partial one.
This, and other sights, are filled with people both dom and sub, that ask the most rediculous questions, that have my 'mum' button flashing red flags all over the place. They have such crap risk assessment skills! And yet they play and sometimes get burned. There is always risk in any given situation. BDSM although no more dangerous, than the average night out in a city, does lend itself to predators and victims. Safe words go a little way to protecting yourself.
And no matter if your a consumate dominant, if youve not been my dominant, then your knowledge is sorely minimal.
I would not be so conceited to believe that i am a good lover to everyone. Only those ive gotten to know over a period of time.
Im pro safe word. But am aware that as a safety method, its a small measure, often after the fact. Id prefer my safety measures to be proactive, rather than reactive.
littleone

(in reply to peasantsub)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/4/2006 7:11:05 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Here is where I completely, and respectfully, disagree.  In learning how to hit someone, I need a much richer level of reaction than "red", "yellow", and/or "green".

I want "ochie!" and "whoa, too low!" and "hey that wrapped!" and the ever ubiquitious "fuck!" and all those wonderful words in the English language that are available to the bottom.  I don't want them focusing on the "hows" of communication, and I don't think that novice tops should have to focus on them either.

Taggard



I hear what you're saying, and continue to disagree for this reason--many of the people I've encountered, at least when they start, hear "owch" and "fuck" as "you'ev HURT me, we have to stop now."  While communication is great, sometimes honestly saying what one's feeling ("jesus christ that hurt, you hit my -thigh-") can cause someone who's unused to it being ok to hurt someone to think that s/he should be stopping.

I -don't- advocate safewords taking the place of talking. I think that it's still a good idea to be verbalizing all those things, however, I think having a safeword as the last line make it easier on a new top. That way, the bottom can say whatever they need to say, get accross everything that they're feeling, and the top can =know= that they aren't implying actual physical damage/harm/need to stop.

I'm not into levels of safewords, even when we first started. Then we used -one- word, that meant that things were going seriously wrong, and I needed him to reevaluate the situation. I still responded with words, expressing what was going on with me, so he could learn my reactions, but it allowed us both the freedom to express those feelings without the expectation that any of it meant "stop."

I don't think I'm articulating very well. I do NOT think that hving a safeword should mean people stop actually responding and communicating with the top. You've said that safewords are a good idea in resistance play, where the bottom will be saying "no" and "stop" a lot. I think using a safeword with new players/newcomers is along the same lines. They are unused to "that HURTS" meaning "but please don't stop" so having a word that -actually- means "please don't stop" makes the bottom better able to say "that hurts" without the top feeling as though s/he should.


_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/4/2006 8:57:25 AM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:


For Myself I always stop when I hear an "ouch or stop" and take a minute to assess the situation.
Even a gasp or a jump will get My attention,so that I ask them if their okay.


Does that ever distract you from your head space? Do your bottoms get distracted by being constantly questioned for every little gasp or jump?

I think it would ruin S/m for me to be continually questioned like that, but I don't know. Himself doesn't do it.

Just curious.

Celeste

edit to correct typo



With someone new I prefer to go slow.I dont see it as being distracted I see it as being aware of them.
I try to not get in My Own space,with new submissives.I want to get to know what they can take slowly and methodically.
For submissives with experience I dont pay attention to the gasps or jumps.The only
thing that registers is yellow or red.
I am sure the experienced submissives would hate to be asked questions all the time.The newer ones seem to appreciate that I make sure they are okay.

Of course we all have or own ways of doing things none of them are right or wrong...its what works for you.Whatever that may be.

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/4/2006 11:34:22 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I hear what you're saying, and continue to disagree for this reason--many of the people I've encountered, at least when they start, hear "owch" and "fuck" as "you'ev HURT me, we have to stop now."  While communication is great, sometimes honestly saying what one's feeling ("jesus christ that hurt, you hit my -thigh-") can cause someone who's unused to it being ok to hurt someone to think that s/he should be stopping.


And you think this is a bad thing for novices???  I think it is a wonderful thing!!!  I think it is great that a novice has to figure out the difference between a "bad" "OH FUCK!" and a good "OH FUCK!", and can't rely on a safeword (which are so inconsistently used by experienced subs, much less novices) to tell them that.


quote:


I don't think I'm articulating very well. I do NOT think that hving a safeword should mean people stop actually responding and communicating with the top. You've said that safewords are a good idea in resistance play, where the bottom will be saying "no" and "stop" a lot. I think using a safeword with new players/newcomers is along the same lines. They are unused to "that HURTS" meaning "but please don't stop" so having a word that -actually- means "please don't stop" makes the bottom better able to say "that hurts" without the top feeling as though s/he should.


I think that should stop when they are unsure of what a bottom's reaction is.  I think that safewords can be used by those with a bit more experience, so they don't have to stop, but I like the idea of novices going slow.

Taggard


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(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/4/2006 1:01:30 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:


And you think this is a bad thing for novices???  I think it is a wonderful thing!!!  I think it is great that a novice has to figure out the difference between a "bad" "OH FUCK!" and a good "OH FUCK!", and can't rely on a safeword (which are so inconsistently used by experienced subs, much less novices) to tell them that.



Ok, still not sure I agree, but I think I know what you are saying now. So you think that using safe words can interfere with a new Top's ability to learn how to read his/her sub? So, you're thinking that the novice Top, instead of paying attention to body language, tone of voice, breathing, etc... will simply think "well if she's not hollering RED then everything must be OK" and therefore will not learn how to read such signs?

I was thinking of it from my perspective as someone who would be very unlikely to use a safeword except in an extreme situation. So perhaps it's merely another topic of discussion as to what situations warrant safe words and which should be addressed with standard forms of communication. I guess that's why I perceived them as an extra layer of safety, as I said before. I kind of imagined them like pulling the fire alarm, it means something really serious is wrong. I don't think they should be used every time OWW means OWW not AHHHHH. But I do think they still serve an important function.


< Message edited by TNstepsout -- 5/4/2006 1:04:08 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/4/2006 1:43:18 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout
So, you're thinking that the novice Top, instead of paying attention to body language, tone of voice, breathing, etc... will simply think "well if she's not hollering RED then everything must be OK" and therefore will not learn how to read such signs?


That's what happened to me as a novice...and that is pretty much what I am saying.

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 80
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