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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:26:46 PM   
quietkitten


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If a person relies on a safeword (be they a sub or Dom(me)) instead of learning to recognize other signals being sent... how safe is the play really?
Why not learn the non-verbal signals and changes in voice that your partner exhibits in play first? Until you know your partner quite well, it is silly to assume that you can read their verbal and non-verbal cues. Focus on getting to know them, then decide whether the "safe words" will even be useful or appropriate for you.
I really believe that the message is not "safe words are bad!" the message is to use them as the tools they are... and don't rely solely on them to keep you alive and well.

kitten




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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:29:44 PM   
perverseangelic


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Y'all -know- I have a problem with trusting safewords as the best and only line of communication.

I think, though, that even among novices they are useful in a very spesific sense. I think they're useful when it comes to -physical- as opposed to emotional play. That is, I think, especially when a d-type is learning that it's really ok to hit someone, safewords are good for indicating physical harm and discomfort. It allows someone to express that one is feeling pain, without the top feeling as though s/he has to stop what he's doing. I'm not a fan of using safewords for emotional stuff, because it's to....iffy...for me. Similarly, I enjoy being with someone that can read me so well that my physical responses are understood.

That said, I think it's still useful to have a safeword when being hurt by either a new partner, or a long term partner new to bdsm, because it allows both parties to get into what's going on, without so much fear that there's "real" harm being done.


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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:39:57 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Skipping past the false starts, and here I am, outside the door of the first dominant I have agreed to submit to for an afternoon.  We have discussed and communicated, we have set parameters, I have a safe caller, etc.
I am shaking like a leaf, taking deep slow breaths..........relax?  I have forgotten how to!  WHAT IF......careens through my mind; what if I don't like it, what if he doesn't stop if I say stop, what if I have made a serious error in judgment and he is not a good person?   Have fun?  I'm supposed to have fun????  I'm scared out of my mind! I'm ready to yell the safe word, maybe I should just go home, no I want this, yes but............Keep in mind this is all before I have stepped inside. 


catize,
There is no way to convey in written words what I want to say in response to convey all that I mean behind these words I just hope you don't interpret them as being insulting to your first Dom or to you. Under the description you make, I wouldn't have gone through that scene with you. Maybe you talked long and in depth, maybe you exchanged a basic idea of what was going to happen, but some of the emotions you describe should not, in my opinion, have been there. I'm not implying you didn't take enough time, but I'm saying you didn't have enough confidence going in as you should have had.

It turned out fine. You came out achieving your goal. They say regardless of how you accomplish the objective achieving it represents success. The old "any landing is a good landing" for pilots is appropriate.

As long ago as it was I remember my first experiences. I may have wanted my submissives to fear what was going to happen to them, I never wanted them to fear me. Until I talked enough not to sense that emotion we didn't play. Sometimes we never played. Long before the world was full of "mentors" a friend and sponsor to my first local club gave me that advice.

Being much younger, I'm sure if I could have taken the short cut of using a safe-word I would, but I'm glad to have been trained otherwise. I've yet to see an argument to change my mind.

(in reply to catize)
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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 5:56:58 PM   
MrrPete


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Taggard - Is it spring yet in upstate NY?


It is and it is beautiful!  Unfortunately, the seasonal change has given me a horrible allergy/sinus infection and I have been under the weather for 3 weeks.  (Elle is not happy. *smile*)

Taggard



Try Zycam for the allergy and sinus problem. I tried it last year and it worked wonders for me. Kicked my problem in less than 2 days.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:09:17 PM   
KnightofMists


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Seems to me you want to throw out the Baby with the Bath water.

I do agree with you that there is some major misconceptions with regards to the whole concept of "Safe Words".  However, just because some use them ineffectively doesn't mean that safewords by themselves are an "ineffective tool" in the BDSM scene.  It very much a situation decision between those in the play and their particular scene.  I share much of your frustration and annoyance with some individauls view points with regards to "safewords" and the misconceptions they spin.

However, stating

quote:


Safewords should not be used by novices...


is only continuing to spin misconceptions.  This particular misconception can be just as harmful as some peoples reliance on safewords in the course of their play.

personally, I think it more important to educate people how to use this "TOOL".  Yes I agree with you safewords are just a "tool".  Like any tool, there are situations when the tool is effective and other times they are not.  Understanding when this particular tool is useful and can be effective is like a Carpenter understand which hammer is most effective given the task they are doing.   Understanding it's limitations as well as when it's effective is very important.

Again, I agree with you in much of what you say.  but, I feel your adding to the misconceptions as much as your trying to remove them.  Instead of banging your head into the wall... take one step to the right and just open the door and walk on through

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 5/3/2006 6:10:08 PM >


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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:26:05 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout
I think of them as an extra layer of safety, sort of like airbags in a car. A novice may not be reckless, but they ARE novices, and as such, things can go wrong. I don't see a problem in having that extra level of safety in place just as long as it isn't seen as a license to be careless.


Could you explain to me just how they add a layer of safety to any scene that does not involve resistance or role play?

Can you please explain how they add anything but a layer of obfuscation to normal communication for no other purpose than to satisfy the safety police?

When used outside the realm of resistance or role play, how do they provide anything at all?

Examples from your own experience (or things you actually witnessed) would really be appreciated.

Taggard


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My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:28:57 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Your stance is that safe words are a poor way to communicate because they muddy the waters.  You prefer words that have real meaning rather than code words.  (I really do want to understand, so let me know if I'm off base here.) 
Your next point is that a safe word will not save my life or keep me from harm if I have made an error in judgment and submitted to the wrong person. 


You have captured the essence of my post to perfection!

Thank you for getting it. *smile*

Taggard


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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:34:06 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

       I must disagree with you on this.  While you make some very valid points (and I will be adjusting how I reply to those newer than myself),  your assertion that resistance play is somehow restricted to the more experienced is (IMO) complete crap. 


You make an excellent point (and one which I was thinking about on my drive home tonight).  I think it is wrong to say that novices shouldn't engage in resistance play.  Novices engage in more edgy play all the time.  I think resistance play should be handled like other edgy/risky play like fireplay or throwing a single tail, that is with education and caution.

So, taking your point, I suppose I should expand my topic to be the following: "Safewords are NOT for novices, unless they are engaging in  resistance play."

quote:


If both partners are able to provide that when some nosey/concerned neighbor calls them to your door, it might be the difference between an uncomfortable half hour in your living room and a domestic violence charge.


For this protection, I find a contract signed and dated by all those involved makes a lot more sense.  But it is a very good point, and one I did not consider in my argument. 

Thank you for a well thought out and reasoned reply.

Taggard


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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:38:13 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ladylexington
However, in most situations, I think novices are better off with safe words than without them.


Why?  Do you have an example from your experience (or you personally witnessed)?

quote:


I've also found safe words particularly useful during mutual exploration (e.g., bondage labs) and play parties.


How?

quote:


I've also employ them to help a submissive feel more secure -- and taken them away to heighten a submissive's anxiety later.


Which has nothing at all to do with safety, now does it?

I have nothing against using safewords as part of play.  Safewords are one of those things that are uniquely part of this lifestyle, and can be quite fun to play with, once you know what you are doing.  They are not something that novices should be forced into having.

Taggard


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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:42:01 PM   
catize


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No insult taken and I appreciate your kind response. 

quote:

  As long ago as it was I remember my first experiences. I may have wanted my submissives to fear what was going to happen to them, I never wanted them to fear me. Until I talked enough not to sense that emotion we didn't play.

I can't change my past experience, but the above is what I would wish for all submissive folk, novice or veteren.


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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:42:22 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rayne58
Master has always given me safe words (yellow and red), because I had very little experience of even much sexual play let alone BDSM.




Can you explain how limiting your ability to verbally communicate to two words helled establish trust and communication?  Could that same trust and communication have been established if you had all the words of your vocabulary to communicate with?  What did having a word that means "slow" and a word that means "stop" add that him telling you that he is going to listen to your actual words did not already have?

Taggard


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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:44:03 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn
Safewords are, in the purest form, a means of communicating information shortly and sussinctly...


You are mistaken.

Taggard

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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:45:20 PM   
LadyHugs


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Dear TNstepsout, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I am of the personal opinion, based on observation and personal knowledge, that safe words and or silent signals/codes shoud not be relied on as the "sole" means of communication.  Safe words or uttering a warning in plain terms, are all communication; just as much as body language, the silent dance of pain and or pleasure.
 
I do believe in this line of topics, dominants--especially novice, hate to be seen as human and make mistakes and or miss target sites and the like.  For those who never experienced the old fashioned "Old School" of enslavement for a required year, how to serve as a slave without insulting a dominant, even one that was so green, that they match the grass and or pollen of late.  But, it is a learning curve for all into the lifestyle.
 
Not much different from the thoughts on riding horses, a rider wears spurs and carries the whip.  Not because the rider needs to use them but, to be there SHOULD it be needed.  Most trained horses moved from weight shifts but, even green horses needed aids until they got their understandings.  Why should humans be any different.  In my equestrian days, bareback without bridle, bit, saddle--I was one with the horse per se.  I was able to do an Obstacle course with weight shifts to include stop and back up.  The lesson of this demonstration to students of mine, some judges in the horse world, was to demonstrate the bit is not the sole means to control the horse but, a silent language that both the horse and rider can communicate with.  I think this can be transposed as an analogy for M/s and D/s interactions.
 
Safe words, safe silent codes, uttering words of any communication are tools.  Pity that they are not seen as enhancement of communication as to create the 'dance' between two energies of the Dominant and submissive.
 
I have seen dominants go into TOP space to which lost all touch or sense of "self" and flew into a subspace like sense; to which their control was normal but to outsiders and the slave, were making mince meat out of the back of slaves.  So, I do think for those who scene one-on-one and in private it is most important for a slave to escape the  dominant who moves into Top space and looses touch with the scene.  Is TOP space bad?  No--it is merely a trait that needs to be monitored, such as a friend who can watch and jar them out if necessary.  Like a "drug trip" or "day dream" the host body will not distinguish reality from the sailing.  It would be good to see Dominants use a safe word as to let their slave/submissive/bottom be aware of their mental, emotional state.  If they are feeling that high, perhaps a break is in order.
 
No matter what is deployed, be it safe words, humming the anthem as a "red" and or uttering words that are plain--it is to keep that margin of control and safety is the main intent and purpose of them.  It is not to challenge the skills or the dominant/submissive individual's validity or right to exist.
 
Dealing with slaves/submissves that have been hurt, I do not do bondage but, like new dominants with new submissives, I have the submissive/slave back into the whip that the dominant keeps constant.  This way the slave/submissive can shift their body and adjust as to make the whip comfortable for them.  The student dominant using the whip can consentrate on the stroke and not the body but, the benefit of the submissive/slave moving into the whip gives a visual "mark" as to what works for that slave and where the strokes fall are serving the purpose.  Even experienced dominants can use this.
 
My seasoned slaves bottoming to a novice dominant puts their hands on where the whip landed--not a word is uttered; thus not to seem 'topping from the bottom' but seeing a hand on out of the strike zones the new TOP sees where he aimed and where it landed was off.  Free, the season slave shifted their body as to always be seeking the stroke and not having the stroke seek the slave.  But, as soon as the "TOP" gets it--this free shifting slave's has done their job and now the TOP is accurate.  Even so, the mentored student of mine had to get 8 out of 10 strokes to touch the match stick in my hand and not touch my hand, before touching skin.  Again, I am of the old out of date form of schooling and it might not be easy to do in sparce areas.
 
In summary, safe words and other forms of communication is a valued tool.  Just because they exist, that does not mean they do or do not have purpose.  One day, it might be needed and then it has served it's purpose.  To control/regulate the TOP and or dominant without "Topping from the bottom" and or challenge the Dominant's authority. 
 
My first slave, having a Top Secret job in the military, could not often discuss what was going on.  Although not safe words; we had code words to which we created, as to allow me to adjust to my slave's mental and emotional state.  I knew from his use of black, it was a painful day and it was personal pain.  I used these codes as to support and comfort my slave, when real life dealt him a cruel blow.  As news would break, I could associate his mood/emotions with tragic events related to his job.  I found code words to benefit our relationship as we both used them, without having a lengthy conversation.
 
How we all use communication depends on our (in general terms) personal situations and relationships.  Nothing fits everybody but--the idea is to have the best happen in our lifestyle and few regrets and or misunderstandings.
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 
 
 
 

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:49:11 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I think they're useful when it comes to -physical- as opposed to emotional play. That is, I think, especially when a d-type is learning that it's really ok to hit someone, safewords are good for indicating physical harm and discomfort.


Here is where I completely, and respectfully, disagree.  In learning how to hit someone, I need a much richer level of reaction than "red", "yellow", and/or "green".

I want "ochie!" and "whoa, too low!" and "hey that wrapped!" and the ever ubiquitious "fuck!" and all those wonderful words in the English language that are available to the bottom.  I don't want them focusing on the "hows" of communication, and I don't think that novice tops should have to focus on them either.

Taggard


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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:52:13 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

Try Zycam for the allergy and sinus problem. I tried it last year and it worked wonders for me. Kicked my problem in less than 2 days.



Thank you!  I may give that a try.

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:57:24 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:


Safewords should not be used by novices...


is only continuing to spin misconceptions.


If we were to say "Safewords should not be used by novices, except for resistance play", would you then agree?

The point of my topic was not so much that safewords should not be used by novices (though I pretty much believe that, I admit there is room for argument), but that safewords were not FOR novices.  They were not something that people used until they got to know one another, then tossed away.

Celeste's post are a perfect example of safewords used by two people who are obviously not novices.  I ask for the umpteenth time, can you give me a real world example of where safewords made a scene between novices safer, that did not involve resistance play?

Taggard


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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:57:36 PM   
sylphgossamer


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open communication coupled with my dominant knowing and watching out for my reactions and changes has always served me much more than any safeword could have. i've not used a safeword, and have been fortunate in my choices of whom i decided to be with instead.

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RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 6:59:03 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dealing with slaves/submissves that have been hurt, I do not do bondage but, like new dominants with new submissives, I have the submissive/slave back into the whip that the dominant keeps constant.  This way the slave/submissive can shift their body and adjust as to make the whip comfortable for them.  The student dominant using the whip can consentrate on the stroke and not the body but, the benefit of the submissive/slave moving into the whip gives a visual "mark" as to what works for that slave and where the strokes fall are serving the purpose.  Even experienced dominants can use this.



This is a wonderful training technique.  Thank you for your eloquent replies!

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 7:00:22 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sylphgossamer
i've not used a safeword, and have been fortunate in my choices of whom i decided to be with instead.


I imagine your smarts have had as much to do with it as your fortune.  *wink*

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to sylphgossamer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Safewords are NOT for novices! - 5/3/2006 7:20:59 PM   
Veryfewcan


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Joined: 11/18/2005
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I have read this thread with a lot of interest. Safewords...Hum! I have never found the need to use one, though they were available. I have to agree with some on here that state a slave will forgo such things, because of the sub-space. I know this to be true, because I have been there. I feel the a Domme/Dom, who has been trusted with the sub/slaves submission, will know. If not, then perhaps they as a Dominate should re-evaulate their role. I mean really????Do you think us slaves are going to call a safeword, when we are going to sub-space.
Which brings up another question? For the subs/slaves: Have you ever been almost there and the darn Dominate laxes? You don't make it?

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 60
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