RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (Full Version)

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MsMacComb -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:00:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Yup, we all know I'm just the most disrespectful, rude, ignorant, closed minded, lying player around. 
 

At last, we agree on something, lol.



Phoenixandnika -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:01:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheShadows

I can't help but be very curious about "the good old days", as some refer to it.  I want to know about our community history.  I like to know where I fit into the chain of events.  I've done my fair share of research on this topic.  Everything I've read points to the fact that BDSM, S&M, and D/s was very unorganized back in those beginning times.  Which leads me to believe that there were never any absolute values that everyone went by.  There still aren't.  So, that's a moot point, IMO.  "True values" are subjective.
Has the internet devalued BDSM?  he internet is only a tool.  IMO, it's the people who use it to hurt, abuse, and exploit others that has devalued BDSM, based on my own set of "Lifestyle Values".

As always, YMMV.
  

I think the guys point (in part) was that with the Internet you have people that can spout off and give advice that have no clue what they are talking about. One only has to look at about half the webisites, articles, forums, threads and replies to confirm that. Part of that is that people can be anonymous so there is no accountability for some, no way to verify anything they claim. You could have a 17 year old virgin trying to pass themselves off as some life long lifestyler and based off much of what I read, that appears to be the case. As he stated "Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness". I see less and less of that everyday and you can witness most of the heated debates here as evidence. One size fits all, fake profiles, disregard for safety measures and this is what applies to me so it can only be that way wanna be dommes/doms. Prior to the Internet where the majority of interaction was face to face people practiced and advocated some of the "values" he mentioned.




Those things are not exclusive to the internet or to bdsm. I would also venture to say those things are not new to any group they have happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future.
 
Your either part of the problem or part of the solution.
 
Blessed Be,
Phoenix's Nika



CrappyDom -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:02:41 PM)

Shadows,

My response was directed to the OP, it was a quirk of the system that it showed my post was directed at you.



TheShadows -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:06:14 PM)

No worries. [:D]



EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:14:54 PM)

quote:

When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness.

I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues.


i couldn't agree more with your sentiments.

when i started about 14 years ago (yes i started young).. there was no internet. there was no fake profiles or fake pictures.. there were no *fly by nite* dommes or masters.

there was protocol, there was a certain way of doing things.. and certain things were expected of a top or a bottom.

now.. ANYONE can wake up and decide *ok i want to be a domme.. VOILA*.. insta domme.

i remember a time when someone wasn't really accepted into their small community until they were sorta inducted.  (yes-back then we huddled together like rats to find a sense of community or we played alone in private..).. you had to pay your dues so to speak.

the internet affords a lot of people a way to take advantage of someone, abuse someone, be a flake.. or be sincere and meet.

i couldn't agree more with what you said, although bdsm has been progressed through the net, it has also been set back.

now, anyone can be a Master or Mistress just by right of calling themselves such.

not back when i remember.

but at the same time the net has afforded me the ability to meet european slaves which i wouldn't have met otherwise.

i take the good with the bad, but on the net i see a lot of people talking a LOT of shit.. most of which they know nothing nor have experience about



TheShadows -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:19:15 PM)

*Sings*  Ya take the good, ya take the bad. Ya take them both, and there ya have, the facts of life, the facts of life.




slavejali -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:26:28 PM)

I agree with what people have been saying generally, there has been people with good and not so good qualities since the beginning of time, however...

Without jumping on the OP straight away..I think it has to be said, the internet is a relative new form of communication and tool of interaction in the world and with any new thing that is embraced by society it is going to have an impact. It has drawn people to bdsm that have never walked into a local bdsm group, nor will they ever, it has drawn people into bdsm that would never have had any form of contact with it before, it has drawn people who are playing with their fantasies online and because it will never be reality for them they have created an online entity of bdsm that does have some strange ideas and practices and judgements etc etc etc. It has created a wonderful avenue for people to interact with others behind the anomity of a computer screen and with this comes the danger of harmful actions...'When people do bad things, they dont wanna be caught"...the internet provides that safety screen for bad or irresponsible intentions generally even if its not intentional.

Take me for example, when I joined the internet, I used it to mess around, relieve stress, I didn;t care what I said, or how my words impacted anyone, I basically saw everyone online is fantasy players, it was no more than a computer game to me. Now am I a bad person? I'm really not....however even not deliberately having bad intentions the internet gave me an avenue to expend some energy with no regard that there was a real person behind the other side of the screen...cuz I just couldnt relate to it as real. Without the internet, I wouldnt have had that opportunity. It has changed things...generally....so I can understand what the OP is saying...like that was me acting like that...someone who had lived in a Master/slave relationship and had the deepest respect for the bdsm community...so imagine people who don't have that connection at all? What are they capable of...and the internet abounds with them. It has changed things....in certain ways.

I wrote this because I just didnt want to jump down the OPS throat straight away...although I can agree with everything everyone has said here too....people are people everywhere...but when people are given a tool to hide where they can freely express and interact and project themselves without any personal repercussion at all...and the world has never ever seen the mass communication tool before like the internet has provided......well...that simply can cultivate bad behvaiour and intentions..on a much grander scale than has been known before...whether its about bdsm or not.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:32:54 PM)

I don't think it has cut into the "true values" of BDSM any more than it's cut into the "true values" of love. Values are values...if they were true values to begin with, they can still be found. If we continue to teach the values, either online or off, those who are ready for them will find them. It's kinda like teaching someone the value of making love over the value of having sex. Both are very good, but there's an emotional connection in making love that we don't get with having sex. There's an emotional connection in a BDSM relationship (which I label as Ms in my world) that we don't get with just a scene. Some people are happy (and rightly so) with scening or having sex. Others find that relationships and making love make them happy. I'm not sure I feel everyone should be one way or another; I've found value in both side of both examples.

Now, what I DO believe is that we have less teachers than what we need. We lost an entire generation of gay leathermen at a time when BDSM was becoming more main stream. Given that a lot of the history of the Leather community is founded with the gay leathermen, this leaves us with a deficit. Fortunately, we do have people stepping up to the plate. We can always find a wide variety of sexual orientations teaching at national events. How cool is that???!

Fire



jamesthehumanrug -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:39:14 PM)

dear sirs and gentleman
greetings
if i may reply
id say trust is essential but if someone jumps into games first like cat and mouse; it can be dangerous, if not annoying ,so its natural to distance yourself ,but, if someone's playing games,to take hold of another ; its power testing , so you eliminate that type of gamer by emphasizing respect rather than no game playing
with any, inital game playing you need to establish "respect "so no one is 'wrong' ,your both right but you ,just happen to have different emphasis(rules).
sometimes:its the chase, thats involved in all initial sexual encounters.



Wulfchyld -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 2:40:30 PM)

*Checks his Great Golden Guide book to BDSM*
 
When I was a young teenybopper in the 80’s… man the 80’ were cool till AIDS scared us straight… I would play rough, tie up, and spank that hiney with my G/F’s. It escalated through sensation and not education. It was quite awesome. Just not that the sensation and kink was realized but the look in the girls eye after the fact. Her starring up at me and thinking… “Holy shit, that little guy did that to me!” and knowing it was as good for her as it was for me. I didn’t in the least bit feel guilty for adding all the cool little toppings to her vanilla life. Until the Internet, Vanilla was ice cream, a top was a cool gadget that spun around, a bottom was that lovely shapely flesh I liked to spank, and so on… to me.
 
I have always used a M/s dynamic in my relationships, casual or committed, and always had a little coffle of slave girls ready to play. It was a role they enjoyed in their vanilla world that was void of vocabulary from the BDSM realm. Rough play and tied up, thrown over the shoulder and slave ravaged was either a latent fantasy of theirs or they were pleasing me. Either way, we enjoyed the play. Enjoyed to the point of bringing friends over to challenge me to capture them all and have my wicked way.
 
The Internet has given vocabulary to my kink, yet in a fashion has hindered my endeavors.  It has exposed me to greater education and a virtual plethora of people who enjoy the same things that I do, willing victims so to speak. The hindrance I refer is the quiet reserve that it had instilled in respect to introducing vanilla girls to my kink. Why this transition happened I do not know. Would I go back… heck no. The Internet BDSM world has made me a better man/Dom, exposed me to people with insights and ideals that I truly appreciate and cherish (you know who you are, you get Loki mail). The good ole days of pre-internet kink wasn’t that good. The sex was awesome and the play was great, however it lacked the structure and knowledge I needed to fulfill my life in a more focused and honest (to myself and others) way. Now I have the vocabulary and understanding to tag and label the things that I could not articulate, the knowledge to apply them, and the contacts to realize them.
 
I will choose to not heed Lincoln’s advice and go ahead and open my mouth and remove all doubt.
 
I appreciate each and every one of you, to one degree or the other. Those who posses great knowledge and share it, those who mentor through the site, the comedians, the goofs, and the martyrs who (foolishly) leap on the forums and make complete ass’s of themselves. There is a rainbow of colorful people that takes us from Blah grey, and gives us a whole spectrum that we can compare ourselves to, like it or not we do it.
 
Respectively
 



JohnWarren -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 3:00:06 PM)

It isn't so much what was said but that it's been said so often by so many novices.  My great wish is they could spend a few minutes looking at the previous notestreams before spewing away. 

Imagine a guy going into a bar and yelling "my girlfriend cheated on me."  In all likelyhood, this would be followed by a barrage of peanut shells and a few thrown drinks accompanied by "we've all been cheated on, sit down, shut up and DRINK."

At least a newgroup or website has an archive so even the most self-centered could see what's gone on before.



wytchywoman -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 3:13:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAndGentleman

When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness.

I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues.


I don't buy into the idea that an electronic medium can "kill true values". There are real people behind all of the keyboards on the WWW. Some of them adhere to values such as you describe, some don't. Same goes for people you meet on the street or your local munch or favorite BDSM club.

You seem to be romanticizing a time period because you feel "displaced" now. It's the nature of the world to grow smaller with inventions like the Internet. By that I mean like minded people now have an easier way to contact other folks who share their interests, thus their would isn't such a vast wasteland where they roam around trying to find someone else to connect with.

I do understand to an extent what your concerns seem to be. I also am a bit disturbed when I see signs that BDSM seems to have become "chic" to a certain group of posers. However, it's not too hard to identify them and move on. I welcome the opportunity to connect with more people than could have been possible 25 yrs ago.

Just my opinion and life goes on.



MichMasochist -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:29:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAndGentleman

When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness.

I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues.



Boy do you make me feel young. Into the lifestyle for as long as I've been alive.

I've listen to my parents talk of the good-ole-days in the past. and how bad things were at the time. Last week they were discusing the good-ole days and the good then and bad now stuff. Memory seems to gloss over the past.

I think the internet has brought some good changes and some bad. Simply, good cannot never exist without the bad.




MissDiandSirHugh -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:31:08 PM)

With out the internet there would be many who like us could only wish to develope our desires and feelings due to distance and being unsure of what it all ment as well as where to find out and explore them.
We have meet lires and cheets along this path of comunications but have also meet them in real life so that sort of person does not change due to what ever medium they wish to talk with .
But have also found those lovely people that no matter how they chat and no matter their side of the life style have brought us to know and meet with both them and others to not only enrich our lives with theor presence and form knowing them but in changing those feelings into realitys aslo to show us there is so much more to develope and explore this includes opertunitys to attend munches and parties even if it takes hours to get to these
The good old days are gone and breeding does not change the peopel from each generation it is those form the what is called the good old days and their actions that are passed on that either makes the next generation into what they are both good and bad.



Dustyn -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:33:49 PM)

Here's an idea.. how about the "old timers" set us young whipper-snappers straight and show us what the old days were like?

Hiding from society... fearing social nd legal prosecution and persecution... running the chance of being thrown in the snake pit because you weren't right in the head...

Ahh, the good ol' days...*snort*

- Dustyn



MsMacComb -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:43:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn
Here's an idea.. how about the "old timers" set us young whipper-snappers straight and show us what the old days were like?
Hiding from society... fearing social nd legal prosecution and persecution... running the chance of being thrown in the snake pit because you weren't right in the head...
Ahh, the good ol' days...*snort*
- Dustyn
 

Dustyn,
If you follow the news "we" are more at risk and our lifestyle in jeopardy than in recent history. The Bush administration (AKA fundie central) has not been kind to alternative lifestyles, freedom of speech or our constitution. There are a plethora of cases in front of the courts even as we speak.



OnyxGoddess -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:48:05 PM)

I'm late in most things but here goes my two pennies....
 
I had a friend once who was a domme for years and years and years.  The Queen of Kink she was known as.  Wonderful lady.  By the time I realized my dominant nature I long since lost contact with her.

Where i'm from folk are "closet freaks."  I use the term loosely and not to offense of anyone.  However, without the internet I wouldnt have been afforded the opportunity to seek persons with the same interests as me or to grow in my training to be a better domme.  I've found folks are really quiet when you speak about these things and look at you like you're out there but when they get behind doors where no one can see and judge them...well to borrow from an old song..."the freaks come out at night." 
 



TheHouseOfHussey -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:53:22 PM)

The internet has made BDSM mainstream, and alot of people abuse the medium. It has hurt the BDSM community as much as it has helped it.



gooddogbenji -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 5:55:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAndGentleman

When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness.

I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues.


You know what has killed the "values of BDSM"?  Posts in an internet forum that bitch and whine about how posts in an internet forum have killed the values of BDSM.  Don't like it, don't use it.

Unfortunately, this wasn't an ALL INTERNET PEOPLE ARE FAKE post, otherwise I could have had fun.

Yours,


benji



kyraofMists -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 6:00:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAndGentleman

When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness.


You only learned these values after finding BDSM?  I thought these values were good for any type of relationship and were not exclusive to BDSM.  I learned them as child from those who helped raised me and not from BDSM.

Knight's kyra



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