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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/16/2011 12:27:51 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
Other than having some sort of recourse for disobedience, do you get something emotionally, mentally out of doing punishment?

I suppose you could look at it very much in the way that NZ presented his response above. There is a clarity of communication that comes from punishment. If I am punishing, there is certainly a message that says if we repeat this scenario, it is the end of the dynamic. It could be viewed as an actions speak louder than words situation. Obviously, the words that I've used prior haven't been effective.

quote:

For example, the Dominant friend of mine that i referenced in the opening post says that punishment for Him, completely separate from S/M play was in place because of the s-type's need for forgiveness and atonement and He gets some satisfaction from helping a girl improve, be a better person, that sort of thing.

In My opinion, this is a good mindset. Personally, I think it's an error to confuse punishment with play. The opposite tends to show the ineffectiveness in Dominance and confusing as all get out to the submissive. The latter isn't My style at all.

quote:

i couldn't get an answer from Him about whether or not He would have a punishment dynamic in place if the s-type didn't feel that need to make atonement. So what if you were in a relationship where there was no deliberate disobedience, do you still feel the need of having a punishment dynamic and if so, is it just for as a recourse or for something else as well.

Thanks for your response,
heartfelt

Not to be entirely glib here, but I'd rather have the policy in place and not need it, than need it when it wasn't established. I really don't base the concept of a punishment dynamic on whether or not I've actually had to punish. I base My definition on whether I have the right to punish or not. The determination of whether a punishment is warranted is a part of My authority. If I never have to use it, great!

This also applies to us. It's often assumed that if it's a punishment dynamic, that punishment is occuring all the time.

agirl

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/16/2011 12:30:14 PM

leadership527

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quote:

LadyPact said:
I really don't base the concept of a punishment dynamic on whether or not I've actually had to punish. I base My definition on whether I have the right to punish or not. The determination of whether a punishment is warranted is a part of My authority. If I never have to use it, great!

Interesting. By that definition, I also have a "punishment dynamic" since "punishment" is a part of "total". But by that definition, I have an everything dynamic. I find it more useful to discuss what's actually likely to happen and what tools I'm actually likely to lean on.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/16/2011 1:21:51 PM

62704

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I dislike doling out punishment. But as with any other sane adult, I wind up doing a lot things I don't like because the end result is worthwhile. Punishment is sometimes (fortunately rarely) one of them.

What do I get out of it? Not much. I know I'm doing the responsible thing and fulfilling a difficult need - not just for her, but for us. I see it as a measure, however small, of myself. And its one of the various ways she sees me doing something I don't like for the benefit of the relationship, which is healthy all around.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/16/2011 4:34:10 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your response. May i ask did you or do you have a punishment dynamic in your relationships?

You're welcome.

I have in the sense of punishment that I put forth. I'm trying to think over whether "punishment" is technically the best term to describe it, though, because willful disobedience or a marked inability to obey (or show the desire to) is not something I would probably address with punishment (I'd put forth a much stricter set of protocols that covered things as specifically as possible and expect them to be followed and, barring that, I'd set a threshold beyond which I'd cease putting forth the effort to guide if the effort to follow was not reciprocal).

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

And if so, is this why you have one, or is it a combination things, ie for a variety of reasons? And if you had a girl whose motivation was to obey and didn't try to disobey, would you have a punishment dynamic in place?

This seems to take me back to thinking about whether "punishment" is the best term. I've had very little reason to engage in punishment when my partner had a concerted motivation to obey. Discussion and structured correction are typically all I'd need in those situations. Where punishment has come into play for me has been in situations where I needed my partner to understand the effect something had on me (because, emotionally, we're not all the same and while person A could be prone to place a certain value/importance on thing Z, person B could place an entirely different value/importance on it). In more severe cases, it was a mutual catharsis...a kind of raw union of understanding different interpretations of pain as they manifested for us (and I'm not an overt sadist, so any aspect of pain being given isn't something I'm deriving or could derive pleasure from anyhow). And this is likely reserved for particularly egregious issues anyway.

I like your second question. Someone who seeks to obey and tries not to disobey is not someone I would likely feel the need to engage in punishment with and, after enough time of mutual understanding of emotional connections, it would probably become unnecessary altogether.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 2/16/2011 4:37:20 PM >

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 2:07:23 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Interesting. By that definition, I also have a "punishment dynamic" since "punishment" is a part of "total". But by that definition, I have an everything dynamic. I find it more useful to discuss what's actually likely to happen and what tools I'm actually likely to lean on.

Jeff, we've actually bounced this around before. If I remember correctly, the last time we were discussing this matter, it was also on the concept of punishment. I believe your turn of phrase was that I might have been even more literal in My definitions than you. Something that, from your personal perspective doesn't happen every day.

What might be interesting to you in your own musings, would be to inspect your own toolbox. Granted, the tools that we use most often are the ones that we lean on most. That doesn't mean that the ones that we use less frequency don't also have an importance. I'll bet you use your screwdriver more often than you do your timing light. Still, when you need it, that timing light comes in handy.

As always, My best to Carol.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 4:00:50 AM

DocksideWhore

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quote:

Thank you for your response. Just to qualify, what i am talking about is not "play" S/M or funishment, but actual punishment that is completely separate from play. Do you use such a thing in your relationships and if you do, do you do so because it is something that the s-type needs for whatever reason, or do you also get something out of it.

I love the word 'funishment'! What a perfect word! I've had Doms 'funish' me. THeir idea of punishment wasn't really mine and I rather enjoyed it. In fact I enjoy all kinds of attention so even if I am hurt and don't enjoy something at the time, I enjoy the afterburn so to speak so it's not really punishment is it?

Punishment to me is denying me attention so that's what I usually get. That or orgasm denial. /weep.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 6:18:13 AM

heartfeltsub

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Thanks agirl for your reply. That makes a lot of sense. It seems like in a healthy relationship, and i am including Lady Pact as well in this statement that having a punishment dynamic is not really a big thing, it is just something that can be used if needed.

Thanks again,
heartfelt

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 6:23:17 AM

heartfeltsub

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Thank you for your reply Lady Pact, it makes perfect sense and would be something that i would be comfortable with in a relationship, the M-type having the right to punish if he or she thought punishment was needed, but something that in all honesty is rarely if ever used. It sound like a way to not necessarily maintain the authority dynamic but reinforce the authority dynamic.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 6:27:23 AM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I once had an odd relationship that was largely punishment based. She had had no real childhood and craved someone to mentor her and assign punishments when warranted. The corrections became regular, and were clearly not causing serious behavior mod. I suspect that she craved the punishments as a form of caring.

Thank you DS for your reply. You raise an interesting point there, that for this s-type it didn't change her behavior, but she wanted it for another reason and i imagine deliberately did things to get the punishment. If it had not been for her need of being punished, would you have a punishment dynamic in place?

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 6:33:02 AM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 62704

I dislike doling out punishment. But as with any other sane adult, I wind up doing a lot things I don't like because the end result is worthwhile. Punishment is sometimes (fortunately rarely) one of them.

What do I get out of it? Not much. I know I'm doing the responsible thing and fulfilling a difficult need - not just for her, but for us. I see it as a measure, however small, of myself. And its one of the various ways she sees me doing something I don't like for the benefit of the relationship, which is healthy all around.

Thank you for your reply. What you described in the second paragraph is a very interesting comment which i am going to think more on.

heartfelt

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 6:40:22 AM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

This seems to take me back to thinking about whether "punishment" is the best term. I've had very little reason to engage in punishment when my partner had a concerted motivation to obey. Discussion and structured correction are typically all I'd need in those situations. Where punishment has come into play for me has been in situations where I needed my partner to understand the effect something had on me (because, emotionally, we're not all the same and while person A could be prone to place a certain value/importance on thing Z, person B could place an entirely different value/importance on it). In more severe cases, it was a mutual catharsis...a kind of raw union of understanding different interpretations of pain as they manifested for us (and I'm not an overt sadist, so any aspect of pain being given isn't something I'm deriving or could derive pleasure from anyhow). And this is likely reserved for particularly egregious issues anyway.

I like your second question. Someone who seeks to obey and tries not to disobey is not someone I would likely feel the need to engage in punishment with and, after enough time of mutual understanding of emotional connections, it would probably become unnecessary altogether.

Thank you for your response NZ. The bolded portion reminded me of the only time my former Dominant ever punished me. He has a thing about food touching, if the food wasn't cooked together, and in the beginning of our relationship, i served Him a meal with 6 beans touching the meat on His plate because i thought it was a silly thing to be upset by. He didn't think so. So He dealt with it. So i see what you are saying and after that i made sure his food never touched again.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 2/17/2011 6:41:51 AM >

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/17/2011 6:59:37 AM

0ldhen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Rather than a punishment dynamic, I prefer to have an Education Program. I believe that if a girl screws up, the problem may rest in plart with me for not spending the necessary time in training or explaining what is required or I failed to verify that she has completely understood. My answer is to retrain as well as explaining why some things need be done the way I expect or why they need to be done at all. I simply refuse to fall, back on the "Because I said so," reason or even "Because I can". Even in some cases which may be attention seeking, I prefer to issue additional tasks of an unpleasant type instead to use physical or corporal punishment. I can always remove privelages like wearing clothes in the home or remove favorite deserts from her dinner and there is the hated "Corner Time". When it comes to Corporal Punishment, I expect the girl to bed/ask if we can use this as a play basis later. She should understand that it takes little to bring out my inner Sadist.

Bravo!

I was going to answer this post but yours speaks volumes.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/20/2011 5:52:39 AM

agirl

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Some things are all about him, some things are all about me and some things are all about us and some things are all about the M/s. The punishment aspect falls into the last category. We have them all and all are needed to maintain what we have.

Overall, those things don't get much thought as they just dovetail nicely and are just part of what made us *us*. We don't ever really think about the fact that he can punish me, as it's something that is just there, somewhere in the *what makes our relationship what it is*.

It's not a worrisome or bothersome aspect. I would be far more bothered if it was something that COULDN'T occur, because it'd be a very different type of ownership and one that wouldn't encompass all the things that WE agree defines *ownership* to us.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/26/2011 4:25:39 PM

HereAndGone

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Corporal punishment tends to be a bit of an enigma, whereas it is something that many submissive sincerely crave, right up to the point of when the belt comes out of the pants and the words “pull your panties down and bend over the bed” are uttered. Suddenly as the pit of her tummy is filled and the sting of the belt is felt, doubts rush in. Yet, once the punishment is over, most submissive have a feeling of well being, freedom, and cleansed. Their burdens seem lighter, somehow lifted. And the cycle thus starts a new. It simply is hard wired in them. One may question why this is …

Well, punishment was done with love and intimacy, not hate and the drive for sexual conquest and subjugation. I am not at all saying sexual conquest and subjugation is not a proper dynamic for some couples, I merely suggest that her intimate need to be corrected and please him, is synergistic to his love for her enough to correct her. There is nothing more distressing for a woman when she needs the firm hand of her man, for him to say “Do I have to do that again”! If he takes the responsibility for her need, and want, to be disciplined, he needs to maintain a proper attitude, and follow through, even if the situation is where he is truly busy by calmly saying, “You are going to be punished this evening before bed”.

I do not believe someone you love should ever be punished in the heat of anger. I believe that punishment should be delivered in a just, controlled, responsible, loving manner, even if the punishment is painful. The intention is to correct not humiliate or degrade. Last but most importantly, if your submissive doe not want, desire, crave the intimacy of punishment, ultimately the relationship will breakdown, the head of animosity will most likely rise, and ill feelings ultimately prevail.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/26/2011 4:43:45 PM

DesFIP

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Lady P talks about punishment being reserved for willful disobedience. I have to say, the few times I've said to myself "to hell with him and what he wants" that punishment wouldn't have served any purpose. At those times there's a major problem going on for me to even think that way. Solving the problem has always taken priority.

And in eight years, the problem has always been miscommunication, misunderstanding. Once we understood what we each meant, the desire to be willfully disobedient disappeared. It's always been anger and hurt driven because of what he said which isn't always what he meant or my incorrect interpretation of it.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/26/2011 5:01:47 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

There are subs that want or even ask to be punished when they think they did something wrong.
They feel "naked"when they get none.
For me personally..it is not satisfying. I punish when I want to, not because they want to.
I believe punishment is not punishment when one craves for it.

Well expressed

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/27/2011 5:34:44 AM

txurinal

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From the slave perspective, i have said that when owned i was rarely punished. Without sounding like i am bragging, i was a very good slave. i was obedient, did my chores, was always respectful, and i like to think my MASTERS wer proud of THEIR slave.

Looking back to the timesi was punished for something, it was deserved and punishment was not corporal punishment or "funishment". Basically it was an uncomfortable night in "time out" so i could think about what i had done wrong and realize the consequences of my actions

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 2/28/2011 8:56:36 PM

SirRussellP

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I really don't believe in physical punishment since it rarely is effective way to alter a person's behavior. I will though use it in a few instances, one, she needs to absolve herself from some wrong doing. two, to allow her to prove to me that she will endure for me.

I have found that physical punishment done hard enough to be effective in changing her behavior takes away a part of her I want to have intact, she will now fear the funishment sessions that both of us want, need and love. Also I have found that if the slave wants it then it really isn't punishment at all and will cause her to act out to be punished.

I think it makes more sense to use corrections, things that really hurt her in her mind rather then her body giving her a reason to reflect and alter her behavior.

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 3/1/2011 7:41:52 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

I believe punishment is not punishment when one craves for it.

That's the real trick when punishing a masochist, isn't it?

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RE: Yes, Yes, I know another Punishment Question - 3/1/2011 9:41:16 AM

TotalDiscipline

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

I believe punishment is not punishment when one craves for it.

That's the real trick when punishing a masochist, isn't it?

no

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