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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 11:59:47 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am sure some conservative talking head is going to promote the idea that we should send in the military.

It didn't take long. 7 posts into a thread in which the OP asked for some serious discussion about what could be done and what could not be done and someone from the left had to throw down the gauntlet.


True. And now, back to the discussion (please?)....................................

ETA: I personally would like to hear Poster #7's non-partisan views on this subject.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 2/25/2011 12:03:07 PM >

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:05:54 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am sure some conservative talking head is going to promote the idea that we should send in the military.

It didn't take long. 7 posts into a thread in which the OP asked for some serious discussion about what could be done and what could not be done and someone from the left had to throw down the gauntlet.


True. And now, back to the discussion (please?)....................................


Gladly. I don't go along with the idea that we are responsible in any way for clearing up Libya. As you and others have noted, it is a no-win situation and, if we are not going to win no matter what we do, I'd rather win by not involving ourselves in that morass UNLESS Americans or allies' lives come to be more and more at stake.

I AM annoyed at the fact that, once again, some of the same countries that enjoy taking potshots at us for being "the world's policeman" or for being "imperialistic" are the same ones now stating that the U.S. should "do something".

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:07:28 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am sure some conservative talking head is going to promote the idea that we should send in the military.

It didn't take long. 7 posts into a thread in which the OP asked for some serious discussion about what could be done and what could not be done and someone from the left had to throw down the gauntlet.


True. And now, back to the discussion (please?)....................................


Gladly. I don't go along with the idea that we are responsible in any way for clearing up Libya. As you and others have noted, it is a no-win situation and, if we are not going to win no matter what we do, I'd rather win by not involving ourselves in that morass UNLESS Americans or allies' lives come to be more and more at stake.

I AM annoyed at the fact that, once again, some of the same countries that enjoy taking potshots at us for being "the world's policeman" or for being "imperialistic" are the same ones now stating that the U.S. should "do something".




Out of curiosity, why would you get involved in Lybia? What's in it for you?

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:16:09 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		The thread was started by what I heard on the BBC. People interviewed on the ground were asking for a no-fly zone.

I have no interest in "doing anything" in Libya or anywhere else that would be outside the scope of humanitarian aid.

The point of the thread was I felt the world opinion expressed was unfair, since any action or non-action we (the US) do is somehow wrong.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:21:05 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

The thread was started by what I heard on the BBC. People interviewed on the ground were asking for a no-fly zone.

I have no interest in "doing anything" in Libya or anywhere else that would be outside the scope of humanitarian aid.

The point of the thread was I felt the world opinion expressed was unfair, since any action or non-action we (the US) do is somehow wrong.



No problem, Hlen...take your point...you think you're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

I suppose my response is this: either you're (United States foreign policy) is exclusively altruistic in all of this, or there's something in it for you (the United States).

I err on the side of cynic, and think it's all about you (the US). Just curious as to why you'd help a country thousands of miles away that most people couldn't find on a map.


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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:35:15 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


........No problem, Hlen...take your point...you think you're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Exactly!

I suppose my response is this: either you're (United States foreign policy) is exclusively altruistic in all of this, or there's something in it for you (the United States).

I err on the side of cynic, and think it's all about you (the US). Just curious as to why you'd help a country thousands of miles away that most people couldn't find on a map.

The reason for helping any country with civil unrest is to put our money where our mouth is. We speak of ourselves as egalitarian and democratic and now people are throwing off the yokes of dictators left and right (directions people, not political descriptions!!).


I'm not advocating that we must do something, but I'm just answering your question.

Actually I've thought of another reason - If we can pay off Mubarak for thirty years to have stability in the region, why can't we go to the right side and pay for social justice for the people of the Middle East?

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:49:06 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

The reason for helping any country with civil unrest is to put our money where our mouth is. We speak of ourselves as egalitarian and democratic and now people are throwing off the yokes of dictators left and right (directions people, not political descriptions!!).



Democracy is organic.



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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 12:55:04 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		And so are vegetables.  They do not rain down from the sky but well up from the ground.

Bombs raining down from the sky are not likely to cause the sort of organic democratic groundswells that are healthy.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:00:04 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		yet scavangers can also come from the sky and eat the young vegtable shoots.

and the garden grows better if you shoot them.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:03:39 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Oh, calumnous trickery most unfortunate, in this case we would probably be the scavangers from the sky.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/25/2011 1:04:13 PM >

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:19:28 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

........I AM annoyed at the fact that, once again, some of the same countries that enjoy taking potshots at us for being "the world's policeman" or for being "imperialistic" are the same ones now stating that the U.S. should "do something".


This is pretty much what I started the thread for.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:21:50 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And so are vegetables.  They do not rain down from the sky but well up from the ground.

Bombs raining down from the sky are not likely to cause the sort of organic democratic groundswells that are healthy.


So you agree we shouldn't interfere?

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:31:38 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And so are vegetables.  They do not rain down from the sky but well up from the ground.

Bombs raining down from the sky are not likely to cause the sort of organic democratic groundswells that are healthy.


So you agree we shouldn't interfere?



Conservatives occupy the moral high ground on this one. It's a dilemma for liberals: individual sovereignty versus the great ideal. And you'd be hard pushed to prsent a decent case arguing that the likes of you and I have the moral responsibility to run the world.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:34:04 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Absolutely, look where we have interfered over there, and how it has not advanced our vital interests.

If we believe in peoples right to self-dertermination, then we have to believe that they can obtain it.

People there are being slaughtered and it is unfortunate, but our inserting ourselves at this juncture will only add to the slaughter and with less discrimination. And it will become an issue about us, not about them.  And it is an issue about them.

Imagine if mexico had come in during our break from those fuckin limey bastards (excluding the fucking limey bastards here, mind you ---  LOL, couldn't leave the joke on the table, so sorry.) and said here, let me show you ignorant triangle heads how this shit is done...........

We can flower our words, we can speak of lofty ideals, we can ramble endlessly and pointlessly the yadda yadda yadda and blah blah blah points of view and the horrific goings on, but by god, just like every other free nation they gotta go get it at the end of their own gun.   

It is the only one way throughout our sordid world history it has worked for more than a generation.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:46:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

We can flower our words, we can speak of lofty ideals, we can ramble endlessly and pointlessly the yadda yadda yadda and blah blah blah points of view and the horrific goings on, but by god, just like every other free nation they gotta go get it at the end of their own gun.   



Following on from this, if you can't love yourself then no one else will.....false prophets.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:47:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

yet scavangers can also come from the sky and eat the young vegtable shoots.

and the garden grows better if you shoot them.



It's not your garden.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:51:54 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And so are vegetables.  They do not rain down from the sky but well up from the ground.

Bombs raining down from the sky are not likely to cause the sort of organic democratic groundswells that are healthy.


So you agree we shouldn't interfere?



Conservatives occupy the moral high ground on this one. It's a dilemma for liberals: individual sovereignty versus the great ideal. And you'd be hard pushed to prsent a decent case arguing that the likes of you and I have the moral responsibility to run the world.


Moral high ground being a useless turn of phrase as it's only ever the majority view/accepted norm. They have a more robust case.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 1:55:32 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's not your garden.



True!


< Message edited by hlen5 -- 2/25/2011 1:56:17 PM >

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 4:38:04 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


........No problem, Hlen...take your point...you think you're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Exactly!

I suppose my response is this: either you're (United States foreign policy) is exclusively altruistic in all of this, or there's something in it for you (the United States).

I err on the side of cynic, and think it's all about you (the US). Just curious as to why you'd help a country thousands of miles away that most people couldn't find on a map.

The reason for helping any country with civil unrest is to put our money where our mouth is. We speak of ourselves as egalitarian and democratic and now people are throwing off the yokes of dictators left and right (directions people, not political descriptions!!).


I'm not advocating that we must do something, but I'm just answering your question.

Actually I've thought of another reason - If we can pay off Mubarak for thirty years to have stability in the region, why can't we go to the right side and pay for social justice for the people of the Middle East?


hlen, because they're not our people and not our responsibility?
I believe Sen. Christopher Dodd said about 15 years ago that "foreign aid is the most detested govt. program to the American People."
I really don't think that's changed since then.
Personally I want to end all "foreign aid" and I'm not even as militant about it like many people are. Read some of the opinions in the Yahoo News articles about it that pop up from time to time like whenever they mention Haiti!
All Oblunder has to say is, "sorry but the U.S. is not the world's police force or rescue service."
The bottom line is that all that money belongs to the Taxpayers, not to "the govt."


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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 4:50:19 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

........I AM annoyed at the fact that, once again, some of the same countries that enjoy taking potshots at us for being "the world's policeman" or for being "imperialistic" are the same ones now stating that the U.S. should "do something".


This is pretty much what I started the thread for.


Maybe if we weren't in the habit of doing that we would not have the problem.

But we are the world's policeman because we need to protect our "national interests", which translates to corporate interests.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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