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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 6:18:48 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Wait a minute,...Switzerland is about to make an announcement on this..........nope,.... false alarm!

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 6:20:40 PM   
Sanity


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There there, Im sure that the French are warming up some fighter jets right now.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 6:27:22 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Absolutely, look where we have interfered over there, and how it has not advanced our vital interests.

If we believe in peoples right to self-dertermination, then we have to believe that they can obtain it.

People there are being slaughtered and it is unfortunate, but our inserting ourselves at this juncture will only add to the slaughter and with less discrimination. And it will become an issue about us, not about them.  And it is an issue about them.

Imagine if mexico had come in during our break from those fuckin limey bastards (excluding the fucking limey bastards here, mind you ---  LOL, couldn't leave the joke on the table, so sorry.) and said here, let me show you ignorant triangle heads how this shit is done...........

We can flower our words, we can speak of lofty ideals, we can ramble endlessly and pointlessly the yadda yadda yadda and blah blah blah points of view and the horrific goings on, but by god, just like every other free nation they gotta go get it at the end of their own gun.   

It is the only one way throughout our sordid world history it has worked for more than a generation.



So I guess some folks are not aware that we had outside help in our revolution.


If we can stop heavy weapons from being used on civilians, from the air, I am in favor of it.


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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/25/2011 7:55:24 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Absolutely, look where we have interfered over there, and how it has not advanced our vital interests.

If we believe in peoples right to self-dertermination, then we have to believe that they can obtain it.

People there are being slaughtered and it is unfortunate, but our inserting ourselves at this juncture will only add to the slaughter and with less discrimination. And it will become an issue about us, not about them.  And it is an issue about them.

Imagine if mexico had come in during our break from those fuckin limey bastards (excluding the fucking limey bastards here, mind you ---  LOL, couldn't leave the joke on the table, so sorry.) and said here, let me show you ignorant triangle heads how this shit is done...........

We can flower our words, we can speak of lofty ideals, we can ramble endlessly and pointlessly the yadda yadda yadda and blah blah blah points of view and the horrific goings on, but by god, just like every other free nation they gotta go get it at the end of their own gun.   

It is the only one way throughout our sordid world history it has worked for more than a generation.

Alternatively you could just take a pragmatic approach.

Compare the current situations and progress made in countries where the West has been the driving force - Iraq, Afghanistan (and Palestine/Israel if you so choose) - and those countries where the locals have made the running - Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen and Libya.

Use any measure you like eg. levels of conflict, duration of conflict, intensity of conflict, cost of conflict, proximity of permanent solution and/or peace and/or democracy, number of civilian casualties, level of indigenous control, levels of sovereignty, freedom from external forces, etc etc

I would imagine this is what most of the locals do. The results speak for themselves don't they?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/25/2011 7:56:35 PM >

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 1:04:07 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"If we can stop heavy weapons from being used on civilians, from the air, I am in favor of it."

So why the fuck didn't they do it on 09/11/01 ?

T^T

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 1:19:57 AM   
Termyn8or


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1948.

T^T

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 1:32:50 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"The bottom line is that all that money belongs to the Taxpayers, not to "the govt.""

We seem to agree here. Horatio Bunce was right. Read up on him, you'll like it.

And then there's Smedley P. Butler. He was decorated and made it to major general, and quit. His words expressed that he was not pleased to find out he was fighting for Standard Oil. Remember them ? They got bought out by the illustrious BP, which closed a shitload of offices here, one of the biggest in Cleveland, not five miles from where I sit right now.

I agree with Bunce, and will be seen as a callous ass for it, but so be it. If Butler knew he was fighting for a company that was going to sell out to a foreign entity, he probaby would never made it to his final rank.

T^T

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 4:38:38 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So I guess some folks are not aware that we had outside help in our revolution.



Sanity for one, or he wouldnt have mocked the French.

Personally I dont see any difference between dictators using bombs or dictators using guns. Either way civilians end up dead. Where would you draw a line at intervention ? By country, by political expediency, by cost, by risk factor ?

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 12:50:20 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


If we can stop heavy weapons from being used on civilians, from the air, I am in favor of it.



Just something to keep in mind, Lucky. Kuhdaffy got very interested in anti-air defenses along the decades (I can't imagine why ).

US military intervention should be off the table in this.

-----------------------------------------------


Hlen, to the "damned if you do - damned if you don't" question, you can't please all the people, all the time. Some just like to bitch anyway.

I think the best we can do is denounce, and fuck with his bank accounts. Sending out some good thoughts might not hurt either.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 12:56:03 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		I disagree. It does seem however that he is not using air power against civilians anylonger, (His airforce seems to have quit) so the rationale I would use for a no fly zone over is no longer existing.

I'm not sure that some of his CCC structures vaprozing would be a bad thing, however.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 12:58:54 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So I guess some folks are not aware that we had outside help in our revolution.



Sanity for one, or he wouldnt have mocked the French.

Personally I dont see any difference between dictators using bombs or dictators using guns. Either way civilians end up dead. Where would you draw a line at intervention ? By country, by political expediency, by cost, by risk factor ?



On a case by case basis, just like you do with every person you interact with in your life.

The idea that because we did this we have to do that is nonsense. Or that we have to treat everyone exactly the same.

I know that is a common lefty argument, but its nonsense.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 1:37:19 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Isn't it odd that we don't see any other countries making any announcements about "no fly zones" or intervening?
Obama would be making a huge mistake to get us involved just like Clinton did in Bosnia.
Terms like "building a bridge to the 21 st century," "peacekeepers," (in referring to the U.S. Military) "ethnic cleansing," are all lies to justify doing something we shouldn't be doing. Tell the U.S. Marines, Army Rangers or Navy Seals that they're "peacekeepers."
And, "a coalition of the willing" is just another bullshit slogan.
The only ones getting "cleansed" are the U.S. Taxpayers.
Clinton (like Geraldo Rivera) obviously had "penis envy" when it came to the U.S. Military. He "missed" Vietnam so Bosnia was "his" war but of course he didn't have to don a uniform for it and go into harm's way. Remember when he tried to say that he was "in" the military by being the Commander in Cheif?
And we never should have gone into Iraq or Haiti either.
I think presidents need to have any ability to "intervene" in foreign countries severely curtailed under the war powers act.
Only the congress can declare war and the last time they did that was in 1941.
And yes, it is annoying when foreign countries stand on the sidelines and try to tell (us) to go "do something" that (they) don't have the *balls* to do! Where are all the other African countries looking to help out? This is right next door in *their neighborhood* not ours!
We can't even get *our govt* to secure (our) borders and Janet Napolitano was in Quatar a few weeks ago talking to (them) about "border security!"
"America should be a force for good in the world." How's about America become a force for good in,.....Michigan?"

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 1:48:13 PM   
Sanity


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Thats a simpletons argument, the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Who really believes that todays France is anything like the France that helped the U.S. in the 1700s (in order to undermine British imperialists)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So I guess some folks are not aware that we had outside help in our revolution.



Sanity for one, or he wouldnt have mocked the French.

Personally I dont see any difference between dictators using bombs or dictators using guns. Either way civilians end up dead. Where would you draw a line at intervention ? By country, by political expediency, by cost, by risk factor ?







< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/26/2011 1:54:55 PM >

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 1:56:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So I guess some folks are not aware that we had outside help in our revolution.



Sanity for one, or he wouldnt have mocked the French.

Personally I dont see any difference between dictators using bombs or dictators using guns. Either way civilians end up dead. Where would you draw a line at intervention ? By country, by political expediency, by cost, by risk factor ?



On a case by case basis, just like you do with every person you interact with in your life.

The idea that because we did this we have to do that is nonsense. Or that we have to treat everyone exactly the same.

I know that is a common lefty argument, but its nonsense.


Firstly, I am not a lefty, as any reading of my posts on UK politics would show you.

Secondly, wtg on ducking the question. Civillian deaths are civillian deaths, where does a case by case basis come in. I was simply asking you what criteria you would use, and since you have no answer you retort giving a non specific reply.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 2:00:43 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Who really believes that todays France is anything like the France that helped the U.S. in the 1700s (in order to undermine British imperialists)?




If France is somehow to be an example, shouldn't it be the example of their revolution telling us how horrific revolutions can be?

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 2:03:20 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Thats a simpletons argument, the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Who really believes that todays France is anything like the France that helped the U.S. in the 1700s (in order to undermine British imperialists)?



Laughable that you cant see the similarities between British Imperialism and American foreign policy. You even fail to note that if we hadnt been imperialistic you would all have been speaking French ( Google 7 years war )

If you want to insist the French of 300 years ago are different to the French of today, why do you insist all Muslims are the same as in the 7th centuary. Dont tell me you have different rules depending on your standpoint ?

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 2:06:00 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Laughable that you cant see the similarities between British Imperialism and American foreign policy. You even fail to note that if we hadnt been imperialistic you would all have been speaking French ( Google 7 years war )

If you want to insist the French of 300 years ago are different to the French of today, why do you insist all Muslims are the same as in the 7th centuary. Dont tell me you have different rules depending on your standpoint ?



It is simple, Muslims are different. At least according to the right. Muslims are evil incarnate.

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 2:16:30 PM   
Sanity


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What does any of this have to do with what I wrote - nothing at all.

The odd tangents you veer off to are becoming more and more bizarre, youre not even remotely worth trying to reason with these days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Laughable that you cant see the similarities between British Imperialism and American foreign policy. You even fail to note that if we hadnt been imperialistic you would all have been speaking French ( Google 7 years war )

If you want to insist the French of 300 years ago are different to the French of today, why do you insist all Muslims are the same as in the 7th centuary. Dont tell me you have different rules depending on your standpoint ?


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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 2:19:42 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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The Conservatives you keep inventing inside your own head perhaps, but in reality I personally like Muslims as much as I do Christians and Atheists, Hindus or even earth worshiping little mindless trolls, so long as theyve not gone too far over the rainbow

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Laughable that you cant see the similarities between British Imperialism and American foreign policy. You even fail to note that if we hadnt been imperialistic you would all have been speaking French ( Google 7 years war )

If you want to insist the French of 300 years ago are different to the French of today, why do you insist all Muslims are the same as in the 7th centuary. Dont tell me you have different rules depending on your standpoint ?



It is simple, Muslims are different. At least according to the right. Muslims are evil incarnate.







< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/26/2011 2:20:29 PM >

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RE: Is Anyone Else Annoyed.....? - 2/26/2011 3:03:01 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Who really believes that todays France is anything like the France that helped the U.S. in the 1700s (in order to undermine British imperialists)?




If France is somehow to be an example, shouldn't it be the example of their revolution telling us how horrific revolutions can be?


You mean ours wasn't?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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