RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (Full Version)

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jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 1:55:58 PM)

quote:

what exactly would having an official language do


And who defines English?   Are we stuck with the English spoken on the effective date of the legislation?

Actually, the whole idea strikes me as very French.   Not that I would badmouth the French.  Some of them are pretty good lays.





Moonhead -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 1:58:15 PM)

In everyday usage, I think most of the French ignore the academie francaise: it's just the publishers who have to worry about the language being effectively deader than latin.



slightgirl -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 2:44:32 PM)

[image]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/national_language.jpg[/image]



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 3:11:44 PM)

quote:

took me 8 stops


What you sound like, Butch, is a girl.   I can't believe a man wouldn't have a map, and wouldn't know where he was going.

They were probably faking it because they didn't want to deal with the helpless honkie.   And even if you had understood them, no gas station can afford to hire people who actually know their way around.   So you were lucky.  They might have sent you to Havana.



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 3:16:21 PM)

quote:

language being effectively deader than latin


I dunno - I hear a lot of 3rd worlders speaking French.   Lot of Africans.





jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 3:25:01 PM)

quote:

be harsh for legal immigrants who don't read english competently


Not harsh.   Nobody cares about harsh.

What it does it create an enormous due process problem.  Courts basically couldn't proceed.   Remember, it's not just people who are born here, but also ANYBODY who may be passing thru - we can legally (ie under US law - don't bet on others) kidnap people to appear in US courts.

It's not a matter of being nice.  It's a matter of efficiency.   Yeah, I know we have lots of easily offended & paranoid people.  My advice is that they should deal with it.



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 3:26:59 PM)

quote:

isn't the Queen's English


LOL!  That's a bitch, trying to get a translator for a Scot, or Jamaican, or Ghanan.



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 3:29:07 PM)

quote:

Plenty of people born in the US can't speak English properly.


And our 43rd President is Exhibit A.



Fellow -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 3:46:26 PM)

I think we can not compare this European phenomenon fully with the US immigration policies. European countries are nation states. The populations are very protective for this status, and the language is considered the most important national identity attribute. Also, European countries are democracies. Multiculturalism  was tried, but it basically failed. This has been acknowledged even by some national leaders recently. The US is not a nation state and multiculturalism is widely accepted: as long as a person makes living somehow, nobody cares about the language skills. The right wing presses such topics occasionally, but I would rather say, US government avoids such type of discussion. If they would pass similar laws to Italy, it would have substantial cost attached. Somebody must pay for language training. Also, imagine the political fall-outs; La Raza  would go  bananas. As I see it,: if somebody would make immigrant language skills an issue, there would be no widespread public support. It would be seen as part of anti-immigration  propaganda.



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:22:50 PM)

quote:

as long as a person makes living somehow, nobody cares about the language skills. The right wing presses such topics occasionally, but I would rather say, US government avoids such type of discussion..... Also, imagine the political fall-outs; La Raza would go bananas


Well said, and imho, the way it should be.

Fuck both the right wing and La Raza (excepting my friends in each).  We have enough real problems without the Teabaggers' cultural purity tests.

The other day (OK, a few months ago) Duncan Hunter's boy got up and said the 14th amendment should be changed, because "being American" was more than just being born here - he announced it's "in our soul".

I guess what he means is that it's not enough to be born in the USA, but you also need the right parents.   Or, I dunno, maybe you have to have enough exposure during your formative years to the right radio stations.   Maybe we could get some discussion of what's in an 'American's soul' (I can guess that Jesse Jackson might have some ideas, and for that matter, Colin Powell) - but the message is pretty clear, that he doesn't think that legally defined Americans are real Americans; but somehow he thinks he does know; and he doesn't think the law (8 USC Title III) defines citizenship, which means he doesn't put much stock in the law.   Which makes me wonder WHAT THE FUCK he thinks he's doing in Congress.

And if Republicans had enough brains to understand, they'd realize that it's pretty fucking insulting to claim that people who disagree with them (eg Murtha & Webb) aren't real Americans, and if they had the brains, they should have the snot punched right out of them. 

But I figure they're just ignorant assholes.





Hillwilliam -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:31:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Has anyone ever actually met a second generation American that speaks no English at all? Even the amish and other very reclusive groups speak some English IME.

I lived in miami for 18 years. I have met THIRD generation Americans that dont speak English.



popeye1250 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:36:15 PM)

For the last few decades the left has been telling us we need to be, "more like Europe."
So now that people bring it up they say, "not so fast!"
WTF?



Hillwilliam -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:36:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

took me 8 stops


What you sound like, Butch, is a girl.   I can't believe a man wouldn't have a map, and wouldn't know where he was going.

They were probably faking it because they didn't want to deal with the helpless honkie.   And even if you had understood them, no gas station can afford to hire people who actually know their way around.   So you were lucky.  They might have sent you to Havana.


Sorry, jack, I lived in miami for 18 years. Want to be a second class citizen? Move to miami and speak only English.

This is the US of A. Why should an American who speaks English have people walk away from him and refuse to serve him in a department store while muttering things about "Goddam Anglo assholes" in Spanish. When you ask to spoeak to the manager, the manager looks at you like you are from Mars and says "no speekie Englie"

This Has Happened to ME



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:41:12 PM)

quote:

Here ya go...


Indeed.  And that's all there is.

The fact of the matter is that 99% of people who come to the USA are 'sponsored' (for lack of a plainer term) by a US person or company.  Like one spouse petitions for the other, or a person petitions for a parent.    Meaning that the people who are most directly involved want them here for some goddamn good reason that satisfies the DHS.

What goes on in a family is pretty much nobody else's concern, and I don't think it's anybody's business if they want to speak Martian at home.   If a person is coming for business, employment or investment, you can bet your ass they speak English, and usually better than the average US high school graduate.

What's going on with this is that people (like Joe the Plumber) vent their resentments about the shit they perceive in their life, and instead of looking at it objectively, they lock onto the little brown people among us, and figure that George Soros sent them to fuck up their lives.   Because they heard it from Glenn Beck.  By doing things like you know, selling oranges on the freeway.

This is the way I look at it - if you can't compete on your home field with somebody who doesn't speak the language, you have a problem.  Ma Nature is knocking on your door, and whispering something about natural selection in your ear.    In fact, if there is real competition (HA!  Thanks again, Republicans) those companies hiring without documentation should, and would normally be (except for Republicans forgetting about anti-trust) be passing those savings on to the consumers.

Now, even Republicans will admit to me that the swarthy folk that they actually know (you know, the ones who change the diapers on their kids and parents) are the greatest people in the world.   It's just all the rest of them, you know?

People should figure out a story and stick with it, IMHO.





jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:49:05 PM)

quote:

"no speekie Englie"


Damn.   Odd how that has never happened to me, anywhere.  

Probably my natural charm.

Oh, I've been thru some tense moments in Compton with some Ebonics speakers, but again, my natural charm just seems to carry the day.

But then, my friends don't seem to have much trouble along those lines either.   Even my ex, and I can tell you she ain't charming.

Maybe you hadn't changed your skivvies, or forgot to brush your teeth for the past week.  

So did you call the police and report an insult?   Or maybe you could file a civil rights action.   But I dunno, if it took you 8 tries to get to your original destination, could you find these guys again if you tried?



DomKen -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 4:50:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Yes all official documents should be in English... if needed or desired other translations could be provided... what is the big deal here?

Then what would be special about the official language?

quote:

Don't you think bringing up the deaf is just a little far reaching?

ASL isn't English

quote:

All police reports should be in English and how or why would a national language stop police from communicating in another language if necessary?

Butch

See my first response.



Termyn8or -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 5:09:49 PM)

Jumpthrougth to OP. Back in a minute.

"these requirements also reflect anxiety that foreigners might dilute fiercely-prized national identity "

THAT is why we don't do it here. Our politicians do not care about our national identity. Never have and never will. This is the melting pot. How do you like getting melted ?

But the fact is - take it or leave it. If you attempt to change it, that will be seen as bigotry. Of course it is evil to assume that we can have our own language and culture. How dare we ask that from our Masters ?

T^T



Hillwilliam -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 5:16:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

"no speekie Englie"


Damn.   Odd how that has never happened to me, anywhere.  

Probably my natural charm.

Oh, I've been thru some tense moments in Compton with some Ebonics speakers, but again, my natural charm just seems to carry the day.

But then, my friends don't seem to have much trouble along those lines either.   Even my ex, and I can tell you she ain't charming.

Maybe you hadn't changed your skivvies, or forgot to brush your teeth for the past week.  

So did you call the police and report an insult?   Or maybe you could file a civil rights action.   But I dunno, if it took you 8 tries to get to your original destination, could you find these guys again if you tried?


Why are you quoting Me and talking about another person's problems? Demonstration of ignorance maybe or just confusion?

As for calling the cops in mniami? What a fuckin JOKE. Most of them are Cuban too. Not American, Cuban. Try whacking into some guy who is going the wrong way down the street and when the cop gets there, he has a long conversation in spanish with the dude and when you ask for a translation, he tells you to get in your car and SHUT UP. Sends Mr wrong way driver on his way and cites the Anglo.
Ask them what nationality they are and they will tell you Cubano. Hey, you dont claim to be American (who gives a shit what color American we're ALL Americans?) go the fuck back.

I wont tell you what LA is like, you just be blissfully ignorant about miami.



jack8007 -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 5:19:46 PM)

quote:

This is the melting pot. How do you like getting melted


Exactly.   And it's what gives our kids the best chance to thrive - we meet anybody on a more or less level field, and not so much inbreeding in most places.

And the inbreeders are entitled to their chance, too, if they think it's their best shot.

Hey, I'll melt Salma hayek any day.



Termyn8or -> RE: Why can 't we do this in the US? (3/5/2011 5:22:10 PM)

"I dunno - I hear a lot of 3rd worlders speaking French.   Lot of Africans."

We got a kid from West Africa at work. His diction is so poor that we can't leave him alone there - to answer the phones or anything. I mean we don't really care about the Queen's English but, people can't understand him.

But he DOES know English. He can read it just fine, when he hears it he understands, but speaking it, well he will never be a radio talk show host, or actually even a participant. He is not stupid, while I have caught him on a couple of technical errors, but shit, I am twice his age with alot more experience so I can't fault him for that.

But his native language is French. I wonder is he speaks that well. I would have no way of knowing really, but I've been told that Polish is designed to be spoken with a mouthful of marbles. Could this be the same thing ?

This is one of those subjects that could go many places. What should we require ?

T^T



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