Does life begin at a single point?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

Does life begin at a single point?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Does life begin at a single point?

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:47:08 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

tazzy started a thread about when human life should be considered to begin. That got me to thinking:

Should there be only a SINGLE point? For example, could killing a fetus that is wanted (e.g., shooting a pregnant woman in the stomach) be considered murder while aborting the same fetus be legal? The abortion folks, pro and con, have been fighting over the life-beginning point for decades, all with the idea that there can only be one point.

I'd love to see a dual system but keep tripping up on how to differentiate. Maybe the mother's wishes would be the only criterion? If the fetus is killed in any other way than a mother-approved abortion?

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

Post #: 1

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:51:48 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

This is a garbled mess for me also.

Just as a uff da right off the bat in the same vein as this small slice of a question is:

Is anothers desire for this life to work its untimely end to the grave unimpeded a necessary and sufficient condition to call it life?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 2

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:54:10 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

NO

in terms of a fetus life is chain, like inheritance passed from one generation to the next.

The individual with sentient capacity however does come into existence with the fetus, in that respect life begins at successful fertilization.

On the other hand in law life begins at a point where "title" can be claimed by the master which is known as the birth.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/9/2011 6:57:40 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 3

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:55:37 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 4

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:58:16 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

re-read what I said and think about it this time, its all covered

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 5

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:59:05 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread.

I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 6

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:59:14 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Ja, regardless of our differences on the religious aspects, taz--- that is a chasm that is unnavigable for me also. And implantation as well........ To blow your nose is to murder rhinovirus. Cuz in respect to life, there is no difference between a dog and a god.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 7

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:02:30 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread.

I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.

extinguishing life is a loss of sentience

it is a single event

the body remains behind

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 8

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:03:36 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread.

I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.

First, in order to set up any system, you have to define the particulars. This one has yet to be defined.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 9

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:25:21 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread.

I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.

Why should there be a dual system? The right of an entity to live is most critical to the entity, and it is irrelevant to that entity who murders it. Either the entity has a right or it doesnt.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 10

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:40:37 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread.

I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.

First, in order to set up any system, you have to define the particulars. This one has yet to be defined.

sentience with regard to the moment of fertilization I would term as the instant of the capacity for sentience.

In the age of atomic time the second the sperm breaks through the membrane the fetus is not yet sentient is it.

however left to the normal course of events the fetus becomes fully vested with sentience.

I believe splitting the hair as fine as I just did is frankly ridiculous and only adds unnecessary ultimately irrelevant distractions to the topic.

It seems a point of reason to simply state that once fertilized the fetus is sentient.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 11

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:50:18 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

A mother-approved abortion... now there's an oxymoron for you.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 12

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:55:19 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

life, in my opinion, begins at conception.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 13

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 7:55:26 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

the greatest problem in life today is all the completely oblivious that are incapable of even spelling metaphysics, theology, philosophy, much less have any education in it and they are all part of that democratic "mob" rule.

a country ruled by a sovereign body of nitwits and corporate thugs.

thats truly comforting

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 14

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 8:02:49 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

corporate thugs and democratic mobs are hardly justification for defining sentience as the moment a sperm augers into an egg.

even maritime law wouldn't cop to that.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 15

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 8:12:56 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

re-read what I said, s l o w l y you are confusing the justification for my position (only one set of several not stated), with the object of my position.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/9/2011 8:14:43 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 16

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 8:26:06 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

I am not confusing a fuckin thing. Murder by rhinovirus anyway you cut it.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 17

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 8:29:02 AM

Falcor64

Posts: 51
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline

There are two different questions here- the first is when life begins and the second one is about sentience.

The first one is slippery because if you define "life" at fertilization, or even implantation, then many, many, many women become guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Easily half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, most before the mother even knows she's pregnant. All she'll know is that she had a heavy period.But, if the embryo is "alive" in any sort of legal sense, then someone has to be responsible for it's "death" too.

Sentience is defined as "self-awareness" and the first good evidence of that is not until about 20 months of age. The research on that point goes like this- take a toddler and put some rouge on his/her nose. Then let toddler see themselves in a mirror. The ones older than 20 months touched their noses, while the younger ones either did not react, or reached toward the mirror. The classic study here is Lewis & Brooks-Gunn (1979) if you're interested.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 18

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 8:38:54 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falcor64

There are two different questions here- the first is when life begins and the second one is about sentience.

The first one is slippery because if you define "life" at fertilization, or even implantation, then many, many, many women become guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Easily half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, most before the mother even knows she's pregnant. All she'll know is that she had a heavy period.But, if the embryo is "alive" in any sort of legal sense, then someone has to be responsible for it's "death" too.

Sentience is defined as "self-awareness" and the first good evidence of that is not until about 20 months of age. The research on that point goes like this- take a toddler and put some rouge on his/her nose. Then let toddler see themselves in a mirror. The ones older than 20 months touched their noses, while the younger ones either did not react, or reached toward the mirror. The classic study here is Lewis & Brooks-Gunn (1979) if you're interested.

There are many far more recent studies that assess sentience in levels, and conclude that at least as early as 2 months infants display activities that are more than instinctive and indicate an awareness of their interaction with their envrionment, consequences of their actions and their physical orientation relative to others.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Falcor64)

Post #: 19

RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 9:10:28 AM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
Status: offline

Life begins at conception - neat concept right? Wouldn't it be nice to have a definite starting point to define the start of life?

Unfortunately it's not possible because the reality is different. Conception isn't an event. It's a process. Pregnancy itself is pretty much about that process.

But then again, what is life? Is it cell mutation and reproduction? is it when the physical and the metaphysical come together to create a living being capable of independent thinking and creativity?

And what about birth? Child development?

If life begins at conception, does this mean you are still alive when you are not breathing? When your heart is no longer functioning?

Can we honestly regard a mere zygote or embryo the same as a functioning, thinking, feeling human being?

I personally define life as the union of the physical and metaphysical - the body, spirit and mind coming together as one - that point being more or less when the embryo becomes a foetus.

This is some way into pregnancy. Nobody knows for sure when it exists for we cannot perceive the spiritual in quite the same way as the natural or physical but it strikes me as a better point on which to base the rights of the unborn child without inhibiting the rights of the woman carrying the embryo.

And having read the justification made by Republican senator Roger Wicker who is behind this Life At Conception Act where he attempts to present belief as scientific fact (and fails) I would suspect that this Act is more about removing the rights of women than protecting the rights of the unborn child.

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Does life begin at a single point?

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094