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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 2:28:07 PM   
DarkestDezirez


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Getting usable energy is always a question of trade-offs. Fossil fuels are (currently) relatively abundant, relatively inexpensive and familiar. On the downside they're poisonous and carry long-term damage to the environment. Nuclear is clean, fairly familiar and pretty safe (Chernyobyl, TMI and the current situation notwithstanding). On the downside it's complicated to produce, generates a waste conundrum, only good for electricity and one day it will go really wrong.

There is no single magic answer for our energy needs. As with anything it's a case of pick your poison. However, as part of an overall solution, nuclear is a good choice.

d.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 2:39:28 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

...............And not a single word yet on solutions that would reduce the hazards and consequences of all of them; namely, energy reduction through serious efforts towards greater efficiency across the board.......

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/energy/energy_efficiency/l27021_en.htm



But people in these discussions so often look at a given alternative in isolation and say "but that could never replace oil."

By itself, no........Does it ever occur to anyone that putting enough of these separate alternatives into use at once has a cumulative affect that could indeed make a serious dent in energy dependency, especially on the environmentally destructive and world destabilizing fuels presently in use?

Just a matter of priorities.



DING!!


I couldn't have said it better myself!! Reduce Re-use Recycle, people!!

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 3:45:14 PM   
Edwynn


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Aside from long term environmental cost, the continuing calculation of such as will continue for many generations to come, the immediate economic costs of oil spills are nothing to sneeze at.

http://chartsbin.com/view/mgz


But the economic costs of the spills are in fact quite tame compared to the ongoing taxpayer support for oil in almost every aspect. The depletion allowance, the "intangible drilling cost deduction," the "enhanced oil recovery credit," et al., and those are just the old ones still in place. A whole slew of new tax funded drilling incentives and profit discounting has come on board since I last dug into it deeply, though I am aware of them. If you want to account for the true cost of petroleum, you have to look at the figure on the pump AND your tax bill.


But other than that, this stuff is pretty cheap!


I have lived in three different locations where nuclear plants were built (i.e., at the time of construction). Even before ground was broken the electric rates went up as result of the cost. In less than five years after coming online the rates were up by at least three times in one location, four times or more in the other two, vs. prior to the nuclear plant. All that with lots of federal ad state financial suckling.


But other than that, this stuff makes a lot of sense!


Yet this is considered as "part of the solution"?


I suppose putting the best minds to the task of reducing energy consumption in the first place would not be considered "part of the solution" in this thinking then.


This "common sense" approach seems to be the consensus among many.




Lord save us from such solutions. 





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/12/2011 3:51:41 PM >

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 4:05:34 PM   
DarkestDezirez


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Putting the best minds to work to reduce energy requirements or consumption is a great idea - in theory; but there has to be the political and public willingness to make it happen and it's hard to see any of that willingness in the US (which consumes about 25% of the world's energy even though it has roughly 4-5% of the world's population). Until there is that willingness, ain't nuthin' gun happen.

d.


< Message edited by DarkestDezirez -- 3/12/2011 4:06:28 PM >

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 5:37:38 PM   
Edwynn


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If you are speaking of realpolitik, then I hear you. Most of the public and politicians have no will, it has been replaced by braying, no small thanks to the media.

One thing I was pointing out was the disparity in incentives between the destructive and expensive energy paradigm vs. any alternative. The general public do not know just how expensive because it is buried in our tax bill and the public debt.

And note that I am NOT advocating further subsidies, etc. to alternative energy, which only makes it a joke and a side show. As of 5 years ago all but one of the US solar panel companies had been bought up by oil companies. People think it was to stifle progress there, which may be partially true, but mainly they were bought because of the subsidies and tax breaks obtained.

What I am saying is to eliminate all subsidies and tax breaks of any sort. I guarantee you that taking the public teat away from oil and nuclear, along with any alternative, will bring to our consciousness and to the attention of purchasing and transportation departments of businesses very quickly just how much these various forms of energy cost once we have the true actual costs to compare. Then you will see money being put to energy reduction much sooner rather than later.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/12/2011 5:38:34 PM >

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 8:23:10 PM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

CNN now reports that the Japanese government is assuming that 2 of the 3 reactors are melting down at this time, and that the 3rd reactor appears to have failed as well. 130 miles from the world's largest city - almost 40 million people.

Jesus. Words fail me.



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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/12/2011 8:42:32 PM   
Brain


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Republicans and Oklahoma oil and Kentucky coal are not interested in solutions. They are interested in maintaining the status quo so they can keep making money. And they want more of the old ways like nuclear and oil simply to make even more money. And when is somebody going to stop the speculators on Wall Street driving up the price of a barrel of oil? The reason speculators can do it is because of a policy change quietly made in the 90s.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



All these posts about why we "need" more nuclear generated power, due to the problems with other means ...


And not a single word yet on solutions that would reduce the hazards and consequences of all of them; namely, energy reduction through serious efforts towards greater efficiency across the board.

All these trillions of government (i.e., taxpayer) dollars thrown at oil and nuclear all these decades, and all people can say is "we need more of it."


As long as we still keep throwing more millions at outdated methods and keep paying more to engineers to find where more oil is or how to build nuclear plants more cheaply than we pay them to find better methods of processing, manufacturing, transporting, etc. with least amount of energy consumption in mind, then we should expect the wars and "accidents" to be the norm that they in fact have become.


So then, just to be the oddball here ...

Cogeneration.


http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/energy/energy_efficiency/l27021_en.htm



But people in these discussions so often look at a given alternative in isolation and say "but that could never replace oil."

By itself, no. But after dismissing 20 different items as being insufficient to the task of replacing the current war-necessitating and infinite-debt-necessitating and laughable-but-good-deal-making-environmental-band-aids paradigm, does it ever occur to anyone that putting enough of these separate alternatives into use at once has a cumulative affect that could indeed make a serious dent in energy dependency, especially on the environmentally destructive and world destabilizing fuels presently in use?


Just a matter of priorities.





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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/12/2011 8:52:58 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Um, John, the reaction to create power IS a criticality, a controlled, sustained one.

Aside from that, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.




True.  Sorry, my physics classes are almost a half century back.  That the problem with grad school; you learn more and more about less and less.  We need some sort of renaissance man advanced degree that includes a range of sciences.

Of course, what I meant was "they can't go BOOM, as in mushroom cloud, city gone."


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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/13/2011 3:42:13 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Latest:

CNN now reports that the ...



I did find this amusing, in a "good grief, are you kidding me?!" type way ... from CNN's web site:

"If the effort to cool the nuclear fuel inside the reactor fails completely -- a scenario experts who have spoken to CNN say is unlikely -- the resulting release of radiation could cause enormous damage to the plant or release radiation into the atmosphere or water. That could lead to widespread cancer and other health problems, experts say."

It's the worst, absolutely the worst, form of "journalism". They might as well have said "if a meteor from space collides with the earth in the next week, which experts say is highly unlikely, then all life on earth could end!". I'm surprised they don't have a section that says "if Godzilla returns to Tokyo the loss of life could be dramatic!".

The hyperbole really doesn't help matters; currently, reactor 1 may have suffered a partial meltdown, but due to the damage they can't say for sure. The other 2 reactors are not currently in a state of meltdown. Reactor 1 has suffered an explosion in its roof structure which has vented some radioactive material, though not enough to represent a significant threat to life, or so it is currently thought. Fuel rod integrity in reactors 2 and 3 appears ok, and continued venting of gas should prevent further explosions, at the cost of releasing some more (short half-life) radioactive material into the atmosphere.

Turning to the wider implications; as someone said earlier in this thread, the US consumes way more energy than it should (a quarter of all global energy), and until there's a truly integrated, global effort to reduce energy consumption, and not just the kind of tinkering at the edges of things like the Kyoto Protocol (which the US did not sign up for in any case), then nuclear remains the only large-scale solution at present.

Unfortunately, it is simply not possible to make nuclear reactors which are earthquake proof; earthquake resistant, yes, but not proof.

So, the bottom line is, stop using so much energy (through things like having petrol prices a third of Europe, as just one example), or understand that, sooner or later, a global-scale nuclear event is going to take place. It may not be this one, but it will happen, the only question currently being when, not if.

In the meantime, Japan's nuclear industry appears to be reverting to type, i.e. to cover up details and release as little information as possible, which only makes matters worse. This article on the BBC's web site is a tad more balanced than the CNN one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12723092

"However, according to World Nuclear News, an industry newsletter, this caused pressure in the containment vessel to rise to twice the intended operating level, so the decision was taken to vent some of this into the atmosphere.

In principle, this should contain only short-lived radioactive isotopes such as nitrogen-16 produced through the water's exposure to the core. Venting this would be likely to produce short-lived gamma-ray activity - which has, reportedly, been detected.

One factor that has yet to be explained is the apparent detection of radioactive isotopes of caesium.

This is produced during the nuclear reaction, and should be confined within the reactor core.

If it has been detected outside the plant, that could imply that the core has begun to disintegrate.

"If any of the fuel rods have been compromised, there would be evidence of a small amount of radioisotopes in the atmosphere [such as] radio-caesium and radio-iodine," says Paddy Regan, professor of nuclear physics at the UK's University of Surrey.

"The amount that you measure would tell you to what degree the fuel rods have been compromised."

It is an important question - but as yet, unanswered.

In fact, the whole incident so far contains more questions than answers.

Parallels with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl suggest that while some answers will materialise soon, it may takes months, even years, for the full picture to emerge.

How that happens depends in large part on the approach taken by Tepco and Japan's nuclear authorities.

As with its counterparts in many other countries, Japan's nuclear industry has not exactly been renowned for openness and transparency. Tepco itself has been implicated in a series of cover-ups down the years. In 2002, the chairman and four other executives resigned, suspected of having falsified safety records at Tepco power stations. Further examples of falsification were identified in 2006 and 2007.

In the longer term, Fukushima Daiichi raises several more very big questions, inside and outside Japan. Given that this is not the first time a Japanese nuclear station has been hit by earthquake damage, is it wise to build such stations along the east coast, given that such a seismically active zone lies just offshore? And given that Three Mile Island effectively shut down the construction of civilian nuclear reactors in the US for 30 years, what impact is Fukushima Daiichi likely to have in an era when many countries, not least the UK, are looking to re-enter the nuclear industry?"


Don't have nightmares :) But do start moderating your energy consumption, assuming you give a fuck - if you're not intending to have children the chances are you'll be able to live out most or all of your life before something really huge happens, so the choice is an individual one.

Personally I think it's time to party like it's 1999 ;)

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 3:44:59 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Of course, what I meant was "they can't go BOOM, as in mushroom cloud, city gone."


They don't need to ... they can go <WHOOSH> ... <EXTREME HEAT> ... <LONG TERM CONTAMINATION> in such a way as it'll make a nuclear detonation look like a walk in the park.

They aren't likely to, but they can do.

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 8:46:23 AM   
DarkestDezirez


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Edwynn:
The general public do not know just how expensive because it is buried in our tax bill and the public debt.


And charging the true price for energy, in whatever form, is key to engaging the public in conservation and exploring new alternatives for obtaining energy. You have to hit people in their wallets to actually get their attention. The current gas price in Germany, for example, is about USD 8.25/USG. That’s a powerful market driver to develop more efficient gasoline engines as well as an efficient public transportation system, etc., etc. I chose Germany because they have Autobahns – kinda like straight F1 tracks - so these folks are not car haters.

Now, I grant you, Germany is not the wide-open Excited States; neither are Germans as rabidly freedom-loving and individualistic as Americans - just look at the way the Germans took to all those cool Hugo Boss outfits, etc., in the 1930s and ‘40s. In fact, I bet if cars had been around in the late 1700s, the second amendment to the constitution might well have read “A well-travelled populace, being necessary to the enjoyment of good times and prom-night back-seat sex, the right of the people to keep and drive cars, shall not be infringed.” Nonetheless, since it took about three million years to produce the fossil fuels used worldwide in one year, it only makes sense to realize the damned stuff is going to run out sooner or later and we should be prepared and, as I’ve said, the best way to get people’s attention is to mug their bank accounts.

dd.

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 8:53:30 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkestDezirez

.............as I’ve said, the best way to get people’s attention is to mug their bank accounts.




When gas went to over $4 last time I thought, "Well at least maybe people will START to think about conservation".

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 11:13:36 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

When gas went to over $4 last time I thought, "Well at least maybe people will START to think about conservation".


It's taken petrol prices of about $10-12 per gallon to get people's attention in Europe.

It needs to be enough that you actually stop and think "fuck me that's a lot to fill up!".

Even I, v8 lover and owner of 2 cars, one of which is lucky if it gets 16 to the gallon, as well as a very fast bike, have sat and thought "ye gods I'm spending quite a bit on petrol" ... I haven't stopped using it, but it has made me think :)

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 3/13/2011 11:16:45 AM >

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 11:16:18 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkestDezirez
I chose Germany because they have Autobahns – kinda like straight F1 tracks - so these folks are not car haters.


Anyone who thinks the Germans are entirely straight-laced needs to remember they maintain and keep open the Nurburgring as a public road, which in any other country other than Italy (and possibly France) would have been closed off a long time ago.

But yes I know what you mean - the jerries aren't exactly wild, personality-wise, and I speak as a man who has a number of German friends, one very close one in fact, although he's counted as "odd" in Germany (though less so in the UK).

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 12:57:05 PM   
tweakabelle


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This report in the authoritative paper, the Sydney Morning Herald*, suggests things are a lot worse than the authorities are letting on. It cites:
*Partial meltdowns at 2 reactors;
*Signs of heating up at 4 others;
*Radioactive material released containing potentially lethal iodine-131 and caesium-137, meaning uranium fuel rods had been damaged and the rector is leaking;
*160 people exposed to dangerous radiation levels; and
*3 power plant workers showing serious symptoms of radiation sickness.

I'm no expert but this seems to add up to a situation that should cause serious concern, if not alarm. Just as concerning is the failure of the electricity companies and the Japanese Govt to level with the people and tell the truth from the getgo.

If we are going to tolerate the risks of nuclear energy, complete transparency and confidence in the relevant authorities is a minimum pre-requisite. It is not being demonstrated in this instance.

* http://www.smh.com.au/environment/race-to-stop-nuclear-meltdown-20110313-1bt30.html

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/13/2011 1:21:47 PM >


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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 1:08:55 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkestDezirez

.............as I’ve said, the best way to get people’s attention is to mug their bank accounts.






When gas went to over $4 last time I thought, "Well at least maybe people will START to think about conservation".




Thanks to a gentler soul than myself for saying what needs to be said.




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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 1:24:01 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I'm no expert but this seems to add up to a situation that should cause serious concern, if not alarm. Just as concerning is the failure of the electricity companies and the Japanese Govt to level with the people and tell the truth from the getgo.

If we are going to tolerate the risks of nuclear energy, complete transparency and confidence in the relevant authorities is a minimum pre-requisite. It is not being demonstrated in this instance.


As I said earlier in this thread, the Japanese nuclear industry has an abysmal safety record and, worse, an equally terrible record on coming clean and being up-front when they do have problems.

It's not quite time to shit yourself, but I'd definitely be prepared for a massive, involuntary bowel movement.

What I do, again, object to though is the extrapolation by journalists from what little is known, to hyperbolic statements; as an example, “partial meltdowns” is a phrase which doesn't actually mean anything – a “meltdown” is hazy enough, but “partial meltdown” could logically mean just about anything, from fuel cell contamination of other chambers within the plant and subsequent temperature rise, to core breach/compromised, short of complete destruction.

Also, fuel rods being “damaged” (which if I understand correctly isn’t necessarily a given from the stated evidence) is also a hugely variable phrase, covering a load of stuff from contamination of the surrounding area on a small scale (which is bad), to complete break-up of the rods (which is disastrous).

We aren’t going to know the truth for a while yet, and even once we do we may not be told the whole truth. Which, given the industry segment we’re talking about, and its capacity for large scale death and destruction, is very, very bad news. The situation isn't helped, however, by journos stoking the flames (as it were).

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 1:25:06 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkestDezirez

And charging the true price for energy,

. The current gas price in Germany, for example, is about USD 8.25/USG. That’s a powerful market driver dd. [/size][/font]


Contradictory.

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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 3:48:59 PM   
mnottertail


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RE: Thoughts on living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plan... - 3/13/2011 4:01:38 PM   
outhere69


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Yup, they can write off any reactor cooled with sea water - it'll be good for scrap.  If the core assemblies were hot they probably shattered as soon as the water hit.  Kinda like Three Mile Island - there was a void (about 27 cubic feet) created by shattered fuel rod assemblies which distributed debris throughout the entire primary coolant loop.

I remember seeing reports about a few experimental reactors that could survive on convection cooling after a shutdown.

and... Anyone heard if the waste fuel rod cooling pond water is still intact at these places?  There'll be hell to pay if that stuff gets dispersed.

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