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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:05:03 AM   
ChiDS


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I'm sorry but I think I'm going to take the word of a nuclear physicist over yours.  Something tells me he has a more educated opinion.  FYI I try not to make a habit of only having one source.  I have viewed many correlating reports on this matter.

Also radiation causes cancer and leukemia.  How many people developed such things after the fact?  You wanna talk about the immediate deaths? Or the long term ones?  Which is the real danger behind radiation.  Cuz, some people seem to think the cancer related deaths do actually count too.

"A new Greenpeace report has revealed that the full consequences of the Chernobyl disaster could top a quarter of a million cancer cases and nearly 100,000 fatal cancers."

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/features/chernobyl-deaths-180406/




< Message edited by ChiDS -- 3/16/2011 7:09:11 AM >

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:09:11 AM   
truckinslave


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You cannot compare meltdowns to explosions.
Meltdowns do not explode in anything like a nuclear sense (Fukushima has suffered steam explosions), do not throw the quantities or weights of irradiated material into the atmosphere as nuclear explosions.
Sort of like comparing grenades to sparklers.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:10:47 AM   
ChiDS


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Fukushima has suffered Hydrogen explosions and partial meltdown.  Radioactive iodine has been found outside the containment area.  Scroll back a few pages, we have already been over all of this.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:12:44 AM   
truckinslave


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There are tons of conflicting "experts" all over the news; "my guy" for this info/opinion was an MIT prof I heard last night.

Meanwhile, the media is hyping it for all its worth.

Sorta like, I dunno, Greenpeace or something.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:14:54 AM   
truckinslave


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Yeah, I forgot the hydrogen. Sorry.
which is really unfortunate, because the ignorant are going to hear "hydrogen" and think "hydrogen bomb", which is not
the case.
Again: sparkler/grenade

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:15:24 AM   
ChiDS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

There are tons of conflicting "experts" all over the news; "my guy" for this info/opinion was an MIT prof I heard last night.

Meanwhile, the media is hyping it for all its worth.

Sorta like, I dunno, Greenpeace or something.


So your saying there are no cancer related deaths to Chernobyl? Only 54 people died.  And your sticking to this story?  Do you work for Philip Morris, buddy?  You certainly sound like one of their PR reps lmao.

< Message edited by ChiDS -- 3/16/2011 7:16:17 AM >

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:30:45 AM   
truckinslave


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Of course there are. This was an uncontained class 7 meltdown, there was an explosion of a type and strength impossible outside the USSR, there certainly was and probably still is inadequate medical treatment. Not to mention virtually no evacuation of even the local population happened for 36 hours after the explosion.

How many people do you imagine Chernobyl killed 5471 miles away? (Tokyo-LA)

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to ChiDS)
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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 7:31:09 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Yeah, I forgot the hydrogen. Sorry.
which is really unfortunate, because the ignorant are going to hear "hydrogen" and think "hydrogen bomb", which is not
the case.
Again: sparkler/grenade


No, even the ignorant will have heard about Lakehurst, NJ.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 8:06:19 AM   
Louve00


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Rachel Maddow explained a bit about nuclear power plants and brought up some interesting things to think about.  Like....where do we do with our "spent fuel".

Nuclear fuel rods contain little pellets of uranium, somewhere between the size of Tootsie Roll and Cadbury eggs. Those uranium pellets are stacked inside thin, 12-foot-long metal tubes, which we call fuel rods.

That's essentially the business end of a nuclear reactor. Big, long fuel rods like that mounted vertically, are inserted into a steel containment vessel. What's happening inside when the reactor is going is a nuclear reaction, nuclear fission, atoms splitting. But instead of creating a nuclear explosion, it is a controlled reaction. Instead of blowing up, the nuclear reaction creates a lot of heat, and the heat is what we are after, because the heat is what these reactors use to make a whole lot of electricity.

To make that nuclear reaction that makes that heat, those uranium pellets are the fuel. And just like any fuel, it gets used up eventually. Your 12-foot-long fuel rod full of those uranium pellet, lasts about six years in a reactor, until the fission process uses that uranium fuel up. It becomes something they call "spent fuel." What they mean is that it is degraded enough that even though it's still wicked radioactive, it is no longer efficient for doing what nuclear power plants are supposed to do, which is generating a lot of heat, boiling a bunch of water, making a bunch of steam that spins a bunch of turbines that make electricity.
So, here's the problem -- after you've gotten your good six years out of your uranium pellet-filled fuel rods, what do you do with them?
What do you do with your expired fuel? What do you do with that spent fuel rod?
Even after it's been taken out of service, the spent fuel is still incredibly hot, thermally hot, like touching the stove hot. And it's also very, very radioactive.What you do is put these hot, really radioactive fuel rods underwater. You put them in pools that, in the case of the Japanese reactors we're focusing on, are about 40 feet by 45 feet.

First of all, water just physically cools down the fuel rods. But the water also provides some shielding for their radioactivity. They're so hot that they need to be kept underwater. And the water can't just sit there either, it needs to be circulating so it is cooling these rods off. If the cooling system stops and the rods are hot enough, if that water stops circulating, the fuel rods are so hot, they will boil off the still water that is covering them.If the rods boil off the water that is covering them, the water level drops and the fuel rods get exposed to the air, what happens? The same thing as in an active reactor that's been shut down. It's not good.
The uranium, remember, is in little pellets that are inside these long metal tubes. If those tubes are exposed to the air, the metal oxidizes and starts to breakdown. It's sort of like the same idea as rusting, but it;s not rusting. It's oxidization. But you can understand it because we're all familiar with what happens when something gets rusty, right? The metal breaks down, starts to degrade.

The combination of the heat and the oxidization works sort of like super-fast rusting. Exposing those zirconium fuel rods to the air causes oxidization to the metal holding on the uranium. It's like super-fast rusting on steroids, and that's trouble.Between that oxidization and the heat, the metal starts to breakdown, and that allows the uranium to get exposed. The uranium so hot that it, too, begins to melt. The same thing that's true for fuel rods and active reactors that have to get shut down.

It's also true for spent fuel rods sitting in the pool. They're all hot and radioactive, right? These fuel rods have to be cooled for anywhere between five to 10 years before they're safe enough to be taken out of these pools and put into dry cast storage. Until they are safe enough for that, they need constant attention. They need a constantly operating cooling system to keep them covered up with that water, or we are talking about the same kind of meltdown that you see in an active reactor that has been shut down for some reason.

The difference is that with the spent fuel rods, it's probably worse. I realize this is a tough time to say worse. I'm not saying it to be upsetting. I'm saying it because I think it is frankly less upsetting to actually understand what's going on than it is not to understand.

This is understandable. The reason spent fuel rods could be even more dangerous than a shutdown active nuclear reactor is because of two things. First: a spent fuel pool that loses its cooling system and has all of its water evaporate is a potentially greater source of a radiation leak than a reactor is, simply because there are often more fuel rods in a spent fuel pool than there are in an active reactor.

The stuff has just to sit there for eight to 10 years, right? So, sometimes, they make it a lot of stuff just sitting there in the same pool, which means that if there is a loss of cooling system to that pool, there is more uranium to form a bigger radioactive mass that everybody hopes we don't have to contemplate.

The other reason, though, that spent fuel rods are potentially more dangerous even than a shutdown reactor is because of where the pools are. When a reactor shuts down, you have to worry about the cooling system over the fuel rods there. That's taking place inside an incredibly strong internal containment vessel. And that incredibly strong internal containment vessels is housed inside an incredibly strong external containment vessel.

One of our guests the other night described this as sort of a Russian doll type system. It's a containment vessel inside a containment vessel. The spent fuel poles that we've been talking about can be just as radioactive, can often have more fuel rods in them, but they're not necessarily kept in that Russian doll-style multiple containment system.
They don't want to move these fuel rods far from the reactors that they come out of. They are, of course, super hot and super radioactive. You don't really want to be trucking them across the country.

But in these reactors that are in trouble in Japan, where do they move those fuel rods to? They just move them to the top of building. They're essentially just protected by the one external containment wall. And that external containment wall is something that we're all very familiar with looking at pictures of right now -- external containment walls that have been blown off from various explosions over the past few days.

At the Daiichi nuclear plant in Fukushima, reactors one, two and three were on and working when the
earthquake hit on Friday. Because of the quake, they've shut down. The difficulty in keeping those still very hot reactors cool is what we have been focusing on for the past few days. But there are three other reactors at Daiichi. We have not been talking about them as much because when the quake hit, they were not producing power. They were turned off already for maintenance.


The reason that we are talking about those reactors now is because they have spent fuel pools inside them. As far as we can tell, those spent fuel pools are just protected by those outer containment walls, which had two fires and an explosion at one of these reactors with spent fuel pools continue, with a spent fuel pool in it.

We've had reports of the water level dropping at two other spent fuel pools. At reactor four, there has been an explosion and there have now been two fires. We know that an explosion there cracked the roof. It appears that damage to the spent fuel rods is what is allowing for a release of radioactivity there.

Japanese authorities did report a large spike in radioactivity after the fire at number four. What that means is that either the force of that explosion or the smoke from the fire or both carried aloft radioactive particles being released by those damaged spent fuel rods, by those uranium pellets inside those big, now probably damaged metal tubes.

This is not a nuclear explosion. There are not nuclear chain reactions going on here. But this is a means by which radioactivity is being released into the atmosphere. And the question is whether or not those fuel rods, even if they're already damaged, can be resubmerged.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/16/6281333-whats-the-deal-with-spent-nuclear-fuel

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 3/16/2011 8:08:04 AM >


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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 11:34:16 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

Over the past few decades, however, a series of studies has called these stereotypes into question. Among the surprising conclusions: the waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts. In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy. Coal Ash Is More Radioactive than Nuclear Waste



Just something to think about.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 1:00:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiDS
Wrong.

Radiation from the sun and man made radiation are two completely different types all together.  Not to mention being blocked by the magnetosphere filtered though the atmosphere then finally coming down to us. So really don't even try to compare the two.

While we don't get much exposure from the sun or other sources, radon etc., we certainly get some exposure to all three kinds of radioactivity, alpha beta and gamma.

For instance naturally occuring carbon 14, small amounts are present in you and all living organisms, decays by emitting beta particles.

(in reply to ChiDS)
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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 1:36:48 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

While we don't get much exposure from the sun or other sources, radon etc., we certainly get some exposure to all three kinds of radioactivity, alpha beta and gamma.

For instance naturally occuring carbon 14, small amounts are present in you and all living organisms, decays by emitting beta particles.


I've seen some massive ignorance on threads on CM, many times.

But the ignorance paraded in this thread is beyond belief.

Nuclear power has massive, long term risks, which mankind is only just beginning to understand. The nuclear industry do their best to obfuscate and keep hidden those errors they make, when those errors can remain among us for decades, even centuries.

If anyone seriously thinks that nuclear power is a safe option, they are deluding themselves.

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 1:45:32 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Do you know how many people Chernobyl killed? 56.

A full meltdown in the open air- effectively zero containment- complete with a graphite explosion (a material not used in Japans reactors, and a truly stupid idea) killed a total of 56 people.


from wiki:
Approximately 134 plant workers and fire fighters engaged at the Chernobyl power plant received high radiation doses (70,000 to 1,340,000 mrem or 700 to 13,400 mSv) and suffered from acute radiation sickness. Of these, 28 died from their radiation injuries.

Longer term effects of the Chernobyl accident have also been studied. There is a clear link (see the UNSCEAR 2000 Report, Volume 2: Effects) between the Chernobyl accident and the unusually large number, approximately 1,800, of thyroid cancers reported in contaminated areas, mostly in children. These were fatal in some cases. Other health effects of the Chernobyl accident are subject to current debate.people affected. my bold

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 2:26:18 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

While we don't get much exposure from the sun or other sources, radon etc., we certainly get some exposure to all three kinds of radioactivity, alpha beta and gamma.

For instance naturally occuring carbon 14, small amounts are present in you and all living organisms, decays by emitting beta particles.


I've seen some massive ignorance on threads on CM, many times.

But the ignorance paraded in this thread is beyond belief.

Nuclear power has massive, long term risks, which mankind is only just beginning to understand. The nuclear industry do their best to obfuscate and keep hidden those errors they make, when those errors can remain among us for decades, even centuries.

If anyone seriously thinks that nuclear power is a safe option, they are deluding themselves.




Okay hotshot, what do you suggest that the world do for power, burning fossil fuels leads to air pollution, and in the case of coal, millions of tons of fly ash.

Hydroelectric can generate power using a renewable source, how ever there you would have to build such a large number of power dams, and that is not practical, since the resulting impact on rivers would, in and of itself, be a disaster.

Wind farms are promising, but the simple fact is that you would have to put wind turbines up everywhere to provide enough power to offset the needs of any industrialized country, which means you cut down on land available for agriculture.

In theory you can put solar panels on every structure in an urban area to generate power for the city in question. Works real good unless there is no sunlight, so you only have power generation during the day.

And, finally, with the current effeciency of solar panels, you would have to cover thousands of acres to power a city. For reference the 950 acre photovoltaic power plant in Canada only provides 80 MWH.

Sorry to inform you of the facts of life, that there is no real alternative to nuclear. Unless you want the world to go back to the stone age.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 2:30:41 PM   
ChiDS


Posts: 100
Joined: 11/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

While we don't get much exposure from the sun or other sources, radon etc., we certainly get some exposure to all three kinds of radioactivity, alpha beta and gamma.

For instance naturally occuring carbon 14, small amounts are present in you and all living organisms, decays by emitting beta particles.


I've seen some massive ignorance on threads on CM, many times.

But the ignorance paraded in this thread is beyond belief.

Nuclear power has massive, long term risks, which mankind is only just beginning to understand. The nuclear industry do their best to obfuscate and keep hidden those errors they make, when those errors can remain among us for decades, even centuries.

If anyone seriously thinks that nuclear power is a safe option, they are deluding themselves.




Okay hotshot, what do you suggest that the world do for power, burning fossil fuels leads to air pollution, and in the case of coal, millions of tons of fly ash.

Hydroelectric can generate power using a renewable source, how ever there you would have to build such a large number of power dams, and that is not practical, since the resulting impact on rivers would, in and of itself, be a disaster.

Wind farms are promising, but the simple fact is that you would have to put wind turbines up everywhere to provide enough power to offset the needs of any industrialized country, which means you cut down on land available for agriculture.

In theory you can put solar panels on every structure in an urban area to generate power for the city in question. Works real good unless there is no sunlight, so you only have power generation during the day.

And, finally, with the current effeciency of solar panels, you would have to cover thousands of acres to power a city. For reference the 950 acre photovoltaic power plant in Canada only provides 80 MWH.

Sorry to inform you of the facts of life, that there is no real alternative to nuclear. Unless you want the world to go back to the stone age.


Geothermal.  I can't remember exactly where but I read that 4 geothermal plants could have enough energy output to supply the entire world.  That's not even looking at what we could do with it, with a bigger budget for the research of the subject.

Wanna know why we are not doing so?  Because you can't make a profit off of abundance.  Profit only comes from scarcity.


< Message edited by ChiDS -- 3/16/2011 2:33:07 PM >

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 2:53:23 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiDS

Profit only comes from scarcity.



Anybody want to bet on whether he has the Socialist Party home page bookmarked?

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 2:59:20 PM   
ChiDS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiDS

Profit only comes from scarcity.



Anybody want to bet on whether he has the Socialist Party home page bookmarked?


If you would actually have listen to anything I have said.  Or any of my posts where I have already explained my political views.  I am not left, not right, not socialist, nor communist, nor marxist.  I support things above and beyond.  I have repeatedly mentioned the Venus Project or at least pointed people in that direction with the documentaries I have pasted.  If you really want to put a label on me though. Call me a Nihilist, because without any sort of real change in how we think and perceive the world.  There is and will continue to be no objective meaning to life.

But I think it's hilarious that anyone who says anything about the profit structure is automatically labeled socialist.  Good show!


< Message edited by ChiDS -- 3/16/2011 3:01:23 PM >

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 2:59:46 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
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From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Sorry to inform you of the facts of life, that there is no real alternative to nuclear. Unless you want the world to go back to the stone age.


*chortle*

Like I said, so much ignorance :)

In one respect though you are correct; your nation cannot continue to consume resources at the rate it is now, and the rate it has been used to.

So, what are YOU going to do?*

*rhetorical question, obviously, since the answer is "fuck all of any real note, on a national basis" :)

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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 2:59:58 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

There are tons of conflicting "experts" all over the news; "my guy" for this info/opinion was an MIT prof I heard last night.

Meanwhile, the media is hyping it for all its worth.

Sorta like, I dunno, Greenpeace or something.


Why don't we take up a CM offering and send you to Fukushima to just hang out for a while outside of the nuclear plants?
You could tweet and blog and even telecast on citizen tube.
You would get a lot of press coverage and could make a lot of money.
Take your tent and hiking gear, and camp outside of the plants for about a week, then report back.
Take your laptop, you probably can get a signal in that area.

If you get bored, you can go help pump seawater on the reactors.

You can be a specimen for medical research.
Prove everyone "concerned" wrong.


< Message edited by Marini -- 3/16/2011 3:03:50 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/16/2011 3:02:13 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Anybody want to bet on whether he has the Socialist Party home page bookmarked?


With your posting history I dread to think what your "Favourites" section looks like.

Something between a mix of Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot, I shouldn't wonder, with a healthy dose of "<Topic X> for Dummies" :)

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