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RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 2:24:30 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

Tokyo (CNN) -- After three explosions and a fire in four days, the situation at Japan's earthquake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant grew more serious Tuesday, chasing all but a handful of workers from the site and raising fears of a far more dangerous radiation threat.

The latest incidents, an explosion Tuesday at the plant's No. 2 reactor and a fire in a cooling pond used for nuclear fuel at the No. 4 reactor, briefly pushed radiation levels at the plant to about 167 times the average annual dose of radiation, according to details released by the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Handful of 'heroes' battles to keep nuclear plant under control

Okay, I admit that nuclear power generation is probably going to be a major factor in the future. As I stated, there have been 13 incidents in the US alone.

I also think that more research should be put into fusion power generation, which would be safer.

quote:

As of July 2010[update], the largest experiment by means of Magnetic confinement fusion has been the Joint European Torus (JET). In 1997, JET produced a peak of 16.1 megawatts (21,600 hp) of fusion power (65% of input power), with fusion power of over 10 MW (13,000 hp) sustained for over 0.5 sec. Fusion power

Of course there is at least one member of this board that would like us to believe he has a fusion reactor in his back yard and he has perfected the process.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 121

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 2:38:16 PM

RapierFugue

Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Okay, I admit that nuclear power generation is probably going to be a major factor in the future. As I stated, there have been 13 incidents in the US alone.

It is a particularly american response to put aside all thoughts of safety in order to continue to feed the consumption beast, rather than seek to drastically reduce consumption.

In Europe, consumption is being reduced. Sadly, the nuclear industry is plugged deeply into the bribery and favour mill, meaning they will corrupt whichever governments they need to in order to get what they want; that is what the US is better at - not bowing to mere money against a common interest.

If the US were to reject nuclear power then it may be Europe would follow suit. A Europe-wide nuclear review has been announced, led by Germany, but once Merkel's local elections are passed I think you'll find she'll return to the nuclear fold.

It's up to the US to lead the way in this matter, if we're to have any chance of averting disaster.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I also think that more research should be put into fusion power generation, which would be safer.

Even the most optimistic estimates say that's a good 50-100 years off.

The question is, what do we do in the meantime?

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 122

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 3:10:56 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

As I posted early on in this thread, the Japanese nuclear industry have a long and terrible record when it comes to truth and transparency - and on some occasions the Japanese government colluded with them too (to keep the truth hidden from their public/rest of the world) ...

I don't know much about radiation exposure but this sounds pretty ridiculous:

Japan faces radiation catastrophe threat

Prime Minister Naoto Kan urged people within 30 km (18 miles) of the facility -- a population of 140,000 -- to remain indoors amid the world's most serious nuclear accident since the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine in 1986.

It is a pretty good safety measure. Radioactive material does a lot more damage if it gets inside a person than if you're just near them.

Ok, so you are inside your house and you have all the windows closed.

But, depending on the weather, you are either going to have air conditioning or heating on in that case.

So isn't that going to draw the toxins right in?

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 123

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 3:24:07 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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Nuclear power plants generate a fifth of the electricity used in the UK.

Strangely enough, Nuclear power generates about a fifth of the electricity used in the US.

Now when you take the EU as a whole, it only gets 6.7% of its electricity from renewable sources, while the US gets 11.14% from renewable energy sources.

The US is working a bit harder on using renewable energy sources.

The US has a higher population than the EU and business and industry are still the largest consumer of electricity.

So, who do you suggest cuts back on electricity usage?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to RapierFugue)

Post #: 124

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 4:04:39 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Nuclear power plants generate a fifth of the electricity used in the UK.

Strangely enough, Nuclear power generates about a fifth of the electricity used in the US.

Now when you take the EU as a whole, it only gets 6.7% of its electricity from renewable sources, while the US gets 11.14% from renewable energy sources.

The US is working a bit harder on using renewable energy sources.

The US has a higher population than the EU and business and industry are still the largest consumer of electricity.

So, who do you suggest cuts back on electricity usage?

Japan is (was) about 20% nuclear. France is over 75%. do you need a geiger counter attached to your corkscrew?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 125

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 4:22:02 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

As I posted early on in this thread, the Japanese nuclear industry have a long and terrible record when it comes to truth and transparency - and on some occasions the Japanese government colluded with them too (to keep the truth hidden from their public/rest of the world) ...

I don't know much about radiation exposure but this sounds pretty ridiculous:

Japan faces radiation catastrophe threat

Prime Minister Naoto Kan urged people within 30 km (18 miles) of the facility -- a population of 140,000 -- to remain indoors amid the world's most serious nuclear accident since the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine in 1986.

It is a pretty good safety measure. Radioactive material does a lot more damage if it gets inside a person than if you're just near them.

Ok, so you are inside your house and you have all the windows closed.

But, depending on the weather, you are either going to have air conditioning or heating on in that case.

So isn't that going to draw the toxins right in?

I assume it will draw some in but it would be, hopefully, less than there is outside.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 126

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 4:28:30 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I also think that more research should be put into fusion power generation, which would be safer.

quote:

As of July 2010[update], the largest experiment by means of Magnetic confinement fusion has been the Joint European Torus (JET). In 1997, JET produced a peak of 16.1 megawatts (21,600 hp) of fusion power (65% of input power), with fusion power of over 10 MW (13,000 hp) sustained for over 0.5 sec. Fusion power

Of course there is at least one member of this board that would like us to believe he has a fusion reactor in his back yard and he has perfected the process.

The problem with fusion is there is no naturally occuring energy containing fuel. The simplest most energetic fusion reaction is hydrogen fusing into helium but the reaction requires a large amount of input energy, to heat the hydrogen to a plasma state. There does not seem any way to get more powewr out of a fusion reaction outside of a deep gravity well then is put into it.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 127

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 6:54:56 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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Of course, as I said, there is one member of this board that claims to have a fusion reactor in his back yard.

The real question is, what can we learn from the system failures in Japan.

As I understand it, from various news reports, the system was supposed to perform an emergency shutdown as soon as sensors detected ground movement. All but one of the reactors shut down, but the last one failed to do so.

Then there was the failure of the cooling system, so the core stayed super heated.

Then the emergency cooling system at a second reactor failed.

Now there are a total of six reactors at risk, at least according to this story.

So, with the prospect of new nuclear plants in the US in future years, what lessons can we learn from this disaster?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 128

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 7:05:39 PM

outhere69

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Joined: 1/25/2011
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Fusion's always going to be a technology that's eternally "possible in the next 20 years". It's just about impossible to maintain a plasma at the proper temperature and in the proper shape.

It's also dirty, since it generates a whole bunch of neutrons that eventually make the entire reactor body radioactive waste. The body would also be subject to embrittlement.

eta: CNN's "just breaking" blog reports that all the workers have been evacuated. Sounds like it time for a collective "Oh shit!"

< Message edited by outhere69 -- 3/15/2011 8:04:53 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 129

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 8:23:08 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

As usual every night lately, "Breaking News!", another new fire at another nuclear plant.
Problems with reactors 4, 5, and 6, now?

Now govt. official is saying, the 50 workers {that stayed behind putting sea-water on the reactors or whatever the hell it is}, have suspended operations.
Are you telling me the 50 workers that were left got the hell out of dodge now?

This is some weird shit going on here.
I am not a rocket scientist and I can't talk all that nuclear fusion/reaction chat, but what the hell is going on here?

It appears like we are just waiting to see what is going to happen next, and no- one can go in and do anything but put sea water on reactors.

What the hell am I going to hear tomorrow?

Now someone on CNN is saying, "Time to bring in the experts!"
Excuse me ? The experts were not already there?

We have sat here for days listening to crazy shit about putting sea-water on reactors, and the experts have not been involved?

< Message edited by Marini -- 3/15/2011 8:35:49 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 130

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 8:25:03 PM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

So, with the prospect of new nuclear plants in the US in future years, what lessons can we learn from this disaster?

Perhaps we could learn that technology is currently underutilized regarding both energy usage and production. The effort is being made, but it would help were we to encourage it further.

As for forward looking endeavors, note this,

Ga. Tech then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neely_Nuclear_Research_Center

Ga. Tech now:

http://www.energy.gatech.edu/research/research.php?id=2

Notice, not a mention of nuclear research in the list there, though the school was a major contributor in that regard in the past.

We might do well in understanding where the more forward thinking is by keeping track of what the engineering schools are doing in this direction.

I've already posted this somewhere, but once again:

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/energy/energy_efficiency/l27021_en.htm

A good many cogeneration schemes could by implemented by some factories, aside from the local electricity and heat plants intended by the EU act.

Then there's this nifty company in Israel:

http://www.innowattech.co.il/

And more explorations here:

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/

Combining cogeneration with conservation via greater efficiency with energy 'harvesting' would likely actually make a dent in the current over-consumption paradigm.

Any new power plant, whether it be hydro, oil, nuclear, gas, coal, whatever, is an expensive proposition and a significant drain on societal resources. Every plant saved from being built is a local or regional area thus not burdened.

As I've pointed out earlier, if we just put more engineers to this task instead of sending them to look for more oil or grinding out another blueprint for a nuclear plant then there would be less need for new power plants to begin with. It does not shine well on the most technologically advanced countries when every energy consideration is dealt with in terms of greater acquisition rather than better functioning of current processes.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/15/2011 8:39:31 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 131

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 8:40:29 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

As usual every night lately, "Breaking News!", another new fire at another nuclear plant.
Problems with reactors 4, 5, and 6, now?

Now govt. official is saying, the 50 workers {that stayed behind putting sea-water on the reactors or whatever the hell it is}, have suspended operations.
Are you telling me the 50 workers that were left got the hell out of dodge now?

I'm watching CNN right now, and they've been trying for over an hour to get confirmation that those last 50 workers are the ones who were evacuated. If it was them, we are all well and truly fucked. It means two things - first, that TEPCO has given up and isn't even going to try to manage the crisis anymore, and second, that the reactors are basically going to just run their course and do whatever they're going to do. Melt down, not melt down, blow up and burn to the ground or not blow up and burn to the ground, whatever. Very grave news. It's just inconceivable to me. I can't begin to comprehend this.

Edit: CNN IS now reporting that it was the last 50 workers, and the plants are now entirely unstaffed. Good god in heaven.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
This is some weird shit going on here.
I am not a rocket scientist and I can't talk all that nuclear fusion/reaction chat, but what the hell is going on here?

It appears like we are just waiting to see what is going to happen next, and no- one can go in and do anything but put sea water on reactors.

What the hell am I going to hear tomorrow?

Now someone on CNN is saying, "Time to bring in the experts!"
Excuse me!! The experts were not already there?

We have sat here for days listening to crazy shit about putting sea-water on reactors, and the experts have not been involved?

This is the mind-boggling part to me. Where is the Japanese government in all this? Why are they just sitting by and letting the utility company do whatever it feels is best? Where is the International Atomic Energy Agency? Why are they not directing this operation? They have oversight authority; why in god's name are they not exercising it? Is anyone in charge of this circus? What the fuck is going on here?

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 3/15/2011 8:42:32 PM >

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 132

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 8:51:54 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

From what I have been able to read in various AP and other sources online, it seems the Utility company was doing all the trouble shooting and brainstorming.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 133

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 8:54:55 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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Panda, that is the difference between you and me.

You trust other governments, I don't even trust this government to tell me the truth, do you think I am going to trust someone in Japan, China, Russia, "...... you insert name of country here" to tell me the truth???

Welcome to reality, sweetheart.
Hang on to your seatbelt, it is going to be a bumpy ride.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 134

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 9:00:37 PM

EternalHoH

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Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline

We will see.

As of yesterday, the problems with the reactors were still one level below the Three Mile Island crisis. And as each day passes and the reactors cool more each day, the meltdown threat subsides. In the meantime, its the safe course to evacuate urban areas.

Actually, I think infrequent crisis like these actually make nuke power safer, because we usually retrofit when oversights are exposed. Things like San Onofre and Diablo Canyon capable of only 7.5 quakes will be addressed, you can bet the farm on that. Just like we addressed things just after 9/11.

Lets not loose our collective shit just yet.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 135

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 9:04:57 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

We will see.

As of yesterday, the problems with the reactors were still one level below the Three Mile Island crisis. And as each day passes and the reactors cool more each day, the meltdown threat subsides. In the meantime, its the safe course to evacuate urban areas.

Actually, I think infrequent crisis like these actually make nuke power safer, because we usually retrofit when oversights are exposed. Things like San Onofre and Diablo Canyon capable of only 7.5 quakes will be addressed, you can bet the farm on that. Just like we addressed things just after 9/11.

Lets not loose our collective shit just yet.

I am far from loosing my collective shit.
I actually TRUST the USA to do all that they can to make nuke power safe.

I am currently talking about what is going on in JAPAN, right now as I type.
Not what might or might not happen in the future.

After this, it appears all if not most countries will be tightening and improving their safety standards.
I expect MANY, MANY, changes and improvements will be made.

It takes something like this happening in Japan {with their 40 year old nuclear plants}, to strengthen quality control and improve safety.

< Message edited by Marini -- 3/15/2011 9:14:11 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to EternalHoH)

Post #: 136

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 9:13:05 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

We will see.

As of yesterday, the problems with the reactors were still one level below the Three Mile Island crisis. And as each day passes and the reactors cool more each day, the meltdown threat subsides. In the meantime, its the safe course to evacuate urban areas.

Actually, I think infrequent crisis like these actually make nuke power safer, because we usually retrofit when oversights are exposed. Things like San Onofre and Diablo Canyon capable of only 7.5 quakes will be addressed, you can bet the farm on that. Just like we addressed things just after 9/11.

Lets not loose our collective shit just yet.

I'm sorry, but your information is out of date. The situation is worsening. As of earlier today, the IAEA has categorized the Fukushima event as 1 level above Three Mile Island, and 1 level below Chernobyl. A Level 6, as opposed to Level 5 for TMI and Level 7 for Chernobyl. I'm not sure where you're getting your information about the threat of a meltdown subsiding - every physicist I've seen tonight says the opposite, that the situation is getting closer and closer to being completely beyond control.

And I want to point out, it's not the cities that are being evacuated - it's the control center of the plant itself. They've essentially abandoned it. That is not a stabilizing situation.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to EternalHoH)

Post #: 137

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 9:15:18 PM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

Panda, don't lose your collective shit yet.

Put it in a safe place.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 138

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 9:16:12 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Panda, that is the difference between you and me.

You trust other governments, I don't even trust this government to tell me the truth, do you think I am going to trust someone in Japan, China, Russia, "...... you insert name of country here" to tell me the truth???

Welcome to reality, sweetheart.
Hang on to your seatbelt, it is going to be a bumpy ride.

Oh, no - I don't trust any government or corporation. But in a crisis like this, it is the responsibility of a government to step in and manage the situation. You can't trust the corporate interests that created the crisis in the first place.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 139

RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions... - 3/15/2011 9:16:47 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

I fail to see how one can retro fit an existing construction with any great degree of success.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to EternalHoH)

Post #: 140

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