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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 9:01:40 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Here is my point. Hopefully I can make myself understood.

Let's pretend I meet a person in a neutral gathering....Jazz Fest in Iowa City. That person is a delight, interesting, intelligent, good conversation, great sense of humour and gorgeous. Drinks a little more than I would like to see, and flirts outrageously with everyone. I spend considerable time with them that day, that person drinks more, gets more physically flirty, and makes it obvious I could take them home and have my way with them. Because of my own modus operandi I decline the easy lay but am still interested.

Fast forward....... We continued to see one another and begin a relationship. Things are going well. Yet........there are occasions of problems. This person will sometimes drink too much, make a fool of themself at gatherings, get too familiar with others. They sometimes like to go out with friends after work, stay out later than I prefer them to, sometimes don't resurface until the next day.

The first few times I give them the benefit of doubt. Trust that they were just having a good time, lost track of time, didn't think it was any big deal.

More time goes on...... I began to be really bothered and start asking pointed questions about the 'occasional night out', I get evasive answers, not looking me in the eye, changing the subject. In time get more demanding, they get more evasive.

Time goes by and I realize that...........A. this person has a drinking problem they are hiding from me. and B. When they drink they turn into a slut that will sleep with anyone that will take them home. Both are things they have been hiding (or have they) and lying about, knowing I would not tolerate either.

Granted, I've made the example very specific and dramatic. No brainer stuff. It could be anything. My point is that the signs of the problems were there the very first day. I chose to ignore them because I only wanted to see the attractive qualities. Once the problems became so obvious I could no longer ignore them, I thought I could 'demand' them away. Perhaps even created drama tear filled confrontations. Forcing that person to promise "It will never happen again!".

I will have set that person up, to where they felt they had no option but to lie. Simply because I chose to ignore the signs of the problem. I created false expectations for that person based upon what I wanted them to be, not what they really were.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 3/19/2011 9:03:23 AM >

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 9:03:12 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: butynbrains

i have been lucky enough to experience (in the past) a loving D/s relationship in which there was ABSOLUTE honesty. Previous to that relationship i had only vanilla relationships, but in those i would have said i was pretty honest. Once i experienced *absolute* honesty in  a relationship i saw the difference was night and day. For me,  absolute honesty in the relationship isn't simply a "perk" of a D/s relationship, its a necessity.



You know you could have had the same absolute honesty in a "vanilla" relationship if you wanted to.  It's not restricted to a DS or kink relationship.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Why do we put people in the position to lie?



Man, that one hit home.  When I met the person that I would marry (and then divorce), I made a resolve to myself that because I was older and supposedly more mature and supposedly wiser than I was when I was in previous relationships, I wouldn't do any of the stupid little things I did in previous relationships that were not necessarily their downfall, but that did not contribute to a good relationship.  I made a vow of absolute honesty.  I would no longer hide things like how many partners I had in the past, what I did in my wild & crazy days, and what the things were that I was ashamed of.  I was going to be an open book.  He would either accept me for who I was, not who I was trying to be, or leave.

Yeah, I was trying to be the perfect wife.  (I'm ignoring the irony in that)

I was completely honest about how I felt about fucking other people (the Cliffs Notes version is it's okay, but it's not that simple), I was honest about what I wanted out of life, what I expected of my relationships and the people in them, I practiced good communication skills, blah blah fucking blah.  Perfect wife.

I don't ask a question I already know the answer to, as that sets people up to lie (in the kid-vase thing above, the "proper" way to handle it is to say something like, "you broke the vase, let's clean it up and talk about it", not "did you break the vase" - which just sets the kid up to lie).

Did he lie to me?  Yes, he did.  All the time.  Pathological liar.  When our marriage counselor asked him why he had a secret girlfriend, he response was "to show that I could" - not meaning to show he was attractive/charming/whatever enough to get a girlfriend, but to show that he could do whatever he wanted.

Was I shocked at the first lie I discovered?  Absolutely.  I had made it so easy to be honest with me, why would he lie?  Because he's a sociopath that needs to control absolutely everything around him, and when it doesn't go the way he wants it to, he lies to try to make it go that way.

That made me hypersensitive to lies, but I try very hard not to punish others for the sins of the one that came before them.

Cali


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(in reply to butynbrains)
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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 9:24:05 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		No wonder some of you ladies either turn out bitter or wind up in the same relationships that were bad for you to begin with aaaand turn out potentially bitter..

That's enabler talk.

The responsibility of a lie is on the liar. If he or she doesn't have their priorities aligned correctly then that's on them. Not the one who is lied to. You may be responsible for NOT making a stand when you could have but that doesn't tie into "it's partly my fault" that this person spoke the words to lie to me.


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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 12:30:29 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		I'd accept harmless ones that were for fun, like Daddy telling me he couldn't make it to see me one thanksgiving because he wanted to show up and surprise me, innocent fun things like that but other lies? no. If you lie to me about petty stuff that doesn't need to be lied about just be honest if I found out he'd lied to me, I may not break off the relationship depending on how much time and emotion was invested into the relationship, but I wouldn't trust him for a very long long time.


Big lies like he was on a business trip in oaklohoma and he was really in tx fucking some bimbo and I found out about it, he'd be packed and out the door before he knew what hit him.




quote:

ORIGINAL: butynbrains are there lies you can forgive or would anything not completely honest be reason to move on/end the relationship? i think it is prob diff if you're getting to know someone vs. already in a long term, committed relationship, but perhaps not. Looking forward to hearing others thoughts :).




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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 1:37:59 PM   
TotalDiscipline


Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline 		I see.
It is still their lie..and you accepted it...or perhaps didn't recoqnize it.
You can keep a lie alive..I think. But responsible..for the initial part...no.

But we also have hope it changes...or might go away.



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(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 2:22:12 PM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline 		As House says, "everybody lies." None of us are perfect and we all try to cover it up. It's part of being human. For me it very much depends on the INTENT of the lie, and intent is not always easy to decipher.

Would I want to be in a relationship with someone who lied about major stuff ? (major stuff = I have 2 other slaves, but I lied and said you were the only one, b/c I knew you would not accept my real situation)

I need/demand a high level of honesty. I am aware I won't always get or give it, but it's a goal to strive for. As some other posters have mentioned, being honest does mean having some conversations you might prefer not to have. Over time you may learn you are closer and know each other better for having those difficult conversations. That's a keeper.




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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 3:31:04 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

No wonder some of you ladies either turn out bitter or wind up in the same relationships that were bad for you to begin with aaaand turn out potentially bitter..

That's enabler talk.

The responsibility of a lie is on the liar. If he or she doesn't have their priorities aligned correctly then that's on them. Not the one who is lied to. You may be responsible for NOT making a stand when you could have but that doesn't tie into "it's partly my fault" that this person spoke the words to lie to me.



You are not understanding my point. I never suggested I would be responsible for the lies. What I am responsible for is seeing the person realistically or not, in the first place.

All too often we go into relationships seeing people the way we want them to be. Not as they are. Because we project so much of what we want them to be, we ignore important incompatibilities. Regardless of what they are.......whether it is booze, drugs, infidelity or lying about stupid meaningless shit.

My point is that if we take more responsibility up front, acknowledge the signs that we don't necessarily want to see, ask ourselves if we can live with the worst of it. Some need for some lies, will not exist. If you can accept heavy drinking, do not confront or pressure the boozer to stop drinking, then they do not need to lie about their drinking. You have acknowledged and accepted that aspect of them. If you cannot accept the drinking, then don't pretend it does not exist, or that you can save them from it, you stay the hell away from them. Nothing about that is enabling, it is being realistic. It is being honest with them, and more importantly, honest with yourself.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 5:40:38 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

You are not understanding my point. I never suggested I would be responsible for the lies. What I am responsible for is seeing the person realistically or not, in the first place.

All too often we go into relationships seeing people the way we want them to be. Not as they are. Because we project so much of what we want them to be, we ignore important incompatibilities. Regardless of what they are.......whether it is booze, drugs, infidelity or lying about stupid meaningless shit.

My point is that if we take more responsibility up front, acknowledge the signs that we don't necessarily want to see, ask ourselves if we can live with the worst of it. Some need for some lies, will not exist. If you can accept heavy drinking, do not confront or pressure the boozer to stop drinking, then they do not need to lie about their drinking. You have acknowledged and accepted that aspect of them. If you cannot accept the drinking, then don't pretend it does not exist, or that you can save them from it, you stay the hell away from them. Nothing about that is enabling, it is being realistic. It is being honest with them, and more importantly, honest with yourself.


Well that makes more sense. I thought that was strange coming from you.

This line is what got me I think.

quote:

I will have set that person up, to where they felt they had no option but to lie.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 3/19/2011 5:51:34 PM >

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submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 7:11:31 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

You are not understanding my point. I never suggested I would be responsible for the lies. What I am responsible for is seeing the person realistically or not, in the first place.

All too often we go into relationships seeing people the way we want them to be. Not as they are. Because we project so much of what we want them to be, we ignore important incompatibilities. Regardless of what they are.......whether it is booze, drugs, infidelity or lying about stupid meaningless shit.

My point is that if we take more responsibility up front, acknowledge the signs that we don't necessarily want to see, ask ourselves if we can live with the worst of it. Some need for some lies, will not exist. If you can accept heavy drinking, do not confront or pressure the boozer to stop drinking, then they do not need to lie about their drinking. You have acknowledged and accepted that aspect of them. If you cannot accept the drinking, then don't pretend it does not exist, or that you can save them from it, you stay the hell away from them. Nothing about that is enabling, it is being realistic. It is being honest with them, and more importantly, honest with yourself.


Excellent post! Your comments are worthy of a sticky and then some. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine

PS. Love the pic!


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His will; my fate.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 7:39:53 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		Everybody lies both to themselves and to each other. You wouldn't learn anything otherwise.

I mean, it's not like we're always seeing things in objective reality, is it? And especially not in relationships when things get more intimate and personal, and therefore the POV becomes that much more subjective.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 8:03:27 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

No wonder some of you ladies either turn out bitter or wind up in the same relationships that were bad for you to begin with aaaand turn out potentially bitter..



Oh and men are immune from becoming bitter and making bad relationship choices through having a penis, yes?

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Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 8:44:23 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Oh and men are immune from becoming bitter and making bad relationship choices through having a penis, yes?

That would be a logical conclusion of course.


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submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 9:17:49 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

No wonder some of you ladies either turn out bitter or wind up in the same relationships that were bad for you to begin with aaaand turn out potentially bitter..



Oh and men are immune from becoming bitter and making bad relationship choices through having a penis, yes?

You mean that it is not true?

Of anyone, you would know both sides of that.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/19/2011 10:08:49 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

No wonder some of you ladies either turn out bitter or wind up in the same relationships that were bad for you to begin with aaaand turn out potentially bitter..



Oh and men are immune from becoming bitter and making bad relationship choices through having a penis, yes?

You mean that it is not true?

Of anyone, you would know both sides of that.


Oh I do.

But then I figured you can always get good bitter down the local pub and most relationship choices are subjective anyway.

You can gain something from any relationship, even if it's just wisdom.

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Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/20/2011 2:09:15 AM   
Herbabygirl


Posts: 21
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline 		It really depends on the lie, the person, and the circumstances. Trust and honesty are huge in a M/s D/s relationship. As a slave my life in every aspect, emotionally, physically, and mentally, are in my Master's hands. I choose to trust Her, but it is a necessity. if She were to lie and something were to go wrong, the consequences could me fatal. It really just depends, but in general, no. Lying isn't acceptable.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/20/2011 5:47:25 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		On the forgiveness aspect.......Considering I accept being lied to and a certain amount of dishonesty, I don't see there's anything to forgive.

Most people have a comfort-zone of dishonesty they can live with, without curling up in a ball and weeping copiously. I can't base my security or my relationships on whether someone may lie to me. I've not been  misled in any heinous or deliberately malicious manner so perhaps I'm rather blase about it.

My children lie to me just as I lied to my parents. They aren't lying to upset or hurt me but because they want to do something that I may possibly stymy. The fact that I don't get a fit of the moral screaming ab-dabs means they are actually far more frank with me than many of their friends are with their parents.

I can't possibly decide what is, or is not, important enough to someone else to lie about, so I haven't any inclination to judge them on that. By the same token, only *I* really know why I may lie or be dishonest in some manner at any given time.

The only thing I've ever cared about where lying is concerned is understanding. The fact that I've been lied to doesn't bother me in the least because ...... everybody lies, and I KNOW that I can't create the cirumstances where anyone can feel they NEVER have to lie to me. I'm just not that good. Lying and dishonesty isn't generally about trying to deliberately hurt and upset.....I see it as part of mutual circumstances that we all have a hand in creating.

agirl




< Message edited by agirl -- 3/20/2011 5:51:17 AM >

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/22/2011 2:59:11 AM   
CeriseNin


Posts: 286
Joined: 4/8/2010
Status: offline 		It depends on the nature of the lie and the effect it has on my ability to trust.

'I really do have a girlfriend.' > 'Those jeans look great on you.'

In the deeper end of the pool there are people who lie just to lie, about anything and everything - I toss them in with the same people who lie to me about their relationship status.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/22/2011 5:46:14 AM   
simonsezwhat


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		forgiveness wouldn't come into it. i would lose interest in the liar and have nothing more to do with them. so there is no opportunity to forgive. i would be someplace else, probably watching TV or maybe watching a TV, if not a TV on the TV, or a TV on a TV, on TV, if it's HBO (not TV). liars are immature or they wouldn't lie. immature people are useless all around. they need someone to finish raising them up. i am not that someone. lie all you want just don't be surprised when you get ignored for it by sensible people. forgiveness is for other things, like when you come home and look in the fridge and somebody took the last beer leaving just the empty plastic thing that held the cans together as six. they did that unknowing your claim on it. it was an innocent mistake, or not even a mistake just they didn't know, but it was yours and they took it. instead of rolling them up in the carpet and dropping them off at the thrift store, it is better to forgive them for they knew not what they did. if they did know and took it and then lied about it, you're back to realizing its best to ignore them henceforth so forgiveness is moot. many people who had their development arrested need to finish growing up as best they can using other so-called adults to have conflicts over issues of character, responsibility and integrity. they get an emotional attachment and as soon as it can bear their weight they lie, cheat, steal and act up like kids do. in the ensuing conflict they try to grow a bit. it doesn't work. they go from one bad relationship to the next. the first time they lie they are testing you to see if you will play that game. if you allow one lie you have signed up for their endless lies. you have agreed, in effect, to be their missing parent against whom they can finish rebelling. it's tiresome so when that happens i just tune out and read a good book on tape. i like books on tape because they are forgiving about punctuation and paragraphs, unlike some people. the only good lies are tall tales, that are stories everyone knows are lies and you can call that fiction. fiction is an honest lie. it tells you up front it is a lie. nobody is tricked any more than they want to be. respect is preserved.

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RE: Any Lies You Can Forgive? - 3/23/2011 10:35:46 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		i once dated a guy who lied about absolutely everything.... it was a very surreal experience, we only went out a weird four months... i really did not understand much of what he was saying

i have never been i a position that i actually forgave someone... i mean i have gotten over things and there have been some things that i have been totally pissed off about that now sit ok with me, but to forgive a person in some sort of ceremony... no never done that... also there never has been a person needing this forgiveness of me either really

i lie sometimes, sometimes because i don't know the answer and i feel strangely pressed to give an answer, so i sort of knit something together that might not be totally true. Or maybe because i am ashamed about something... i think most people who have lied to me have done this out of embarrassment aswell
And of course there are things i do not talk about, this transparency thing is not for me

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