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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/18/2011 3:36:34 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirite
...publishing nude pictures of someone on the internet AND sending links to everyone they know, have worked with, live near, etc.


Making certain to have had a properly drawn up and signed 18 U.S.C. 2257 waiver and model contract, of course, or you might be spending a little bit of humiliating time in court yourself.

As for the love of humiliation, a great deal of it is bunk, because what's really going on isn't humiliation; it's psychodramatic theater. I wouldn't say it all is, but there is a clear line between swan diving into wanted degradation vs. real damage to dignity and self-respect.

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/18/2011 5:08:01 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

As for the love of humiliation, a great deal of it is bunk, because what's really going on isn't humiliation; it's psychodramatic theater. I wouldn't say it all is, but there is a clear line between swan diving into wanted degradation vs. real damage to dignity and self-respect.


However, if you're positing that perspective for humiliation the same could be said for degradation and the other acts that follow. Mind you, I'm not writing the script or directing the show in any manner. And I don't deny it is mere role play for some, but for others it's a definite move towards something else. This is where I find myself leaning on the opposite end of your comment. Theater has a predetermined outcome.

The same cannot be said for these acts when the button has been pushed. And no, I'm not addressing a prod here or there, but in your face antics instead. I'm going to assume I don't need to spell that out. At best you prepare for an possible response, but there's no guarantee the subject won't present something different. So where does that reality fall within the supposition presented?

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/18/2011 5:13:35 PM   
coookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88



Humiliation if done correctly can bring me closer to him than anything else, it strips away my ego, my haughty attitude, my bitchiness, and brings me right down to the ground. It makes me fall, stumble, cry, feel debased at times, and it makes me crave it when I feel like I am getting out of hand again. And I do, frequently, get out of hand. He knows how to remind me of my place.

Sexually speaking, being humiliated creates intense sexual feelings that take me so out of my comfort zone that I can't get enough, and I really couldn't put it into words, it's so intense, but that rush of shame, of embarrassment, of hating what you crave and want, then begging for it, it is unlike any vanilla sex I have ever had and I could never be with someone that wasn't able to make me feel that way. It's just too fucking hot.

All barriers and walls are broken, it's freeing like you can't imagine.



Yep this is so exact to how i view humiliation though written so well i shall not even try

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/18/2011 5:18:19 PM   
Icarys


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Status: offline 		She's a beast, that one. A lovely thang!

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/18/2011 6:58:09 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
The same could be said for degradation and the other acts that follow.


All concepts behind D/s are corruptible, in fact. Some have a higher fiction factor than others, I'm sure you've noticed. That aside, the love of being "humbled" seems more reliable in both theory and practice than claiming to love repeated injury to the very core of one's self-respect. That is not a supposition, but an empirical observation, I'm afraid. Only a select few are wired to embrace the real McCoy here as a positive by default, just as only a select few are cut out for 100% servitude not from concentrate.


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Theater has a predetermined outcome. The same cannot be said for these acts when the button has been pushed.


And when that button is pushed—and I do mean truly pushed—a negative feeling is far more likely to occur. But finding that real button can take some digging and intent, particularly with those who fetishize being made a spectacle of in the limelight.


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
So where does that reality fall within the supposition presented?


As was inferred before, there is some portion of the population I believe is telling the truth when they say humiliation is neato, but most of that refers to the sensual sturm und drang of a very particular gamut of desired acts, scenarios and mind fuckery scripts. There's nothing wrong with that at all per se, but to call it humiliation in the more literal sense of the word is a little disingenuous, in my opinion and experience.

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/18/2011 9:02:05 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

That aside, the love of being "humbled" seems more reliable in both theory and practice than claiming to love repeated injury to the very core of one's self-respect. That is not a supposition, but an empirical observation, I'm afraid. Only a select few are wired to embrace the real McCoy here as a positive by default, just as only a select few are cut out for 100% servitude not from concentrate.


We're in agreement regarding the desire to be humbled and how that often plays out for most. In many situations it's as noted and probably doesn't infringe on the wrong territory. However, the latter part of your comment was the angle I was coming from. And I concur that the two would definitely be well fused, as one cannot feasibly do the first without that level of servitude deeply entrenched. As for the McCoy, suffice to say it isn't pretty and I'll leave it at that.

quote:

And when that button is pushed—and I do mean truly pushed—a negative feeling is far more likely to occur. But finding that real button can take some digging and intent, particularly with those who fetishize being made a spectacle of in the limelight.


I think we're on different sides of the divide here. I agree it can be challenging when you're trying to get beyond the glamorization to unearth the golden nugget. However, when looking at it from this side of the slash I have a hard time taking that stance for two profound reasons. The perceived fetishizing could actually be the individual's willingness to embrace their need for that level of interaction and violation. Secondly, the act of doing such may be at the behest of the one inflicting the torment. Since we're not addressing the run of the mill subject as previously noted, it would stand to reason that there will be those who view the act through the eyes of the one providing it. If he says it's great, that's what it is. End of discussion.

quote:

There's nothing wrong with that at all per se, but to call it humiliation in the more literal sense of the word is a little disingenuous, in my opinion and experience.


The differences in utilization can be easily remedied when intent is distilled. And as we're both aware, those that seek a more factual presentation will be less inclined to embark on practices devoid of the mutual invasion both crave. They're apt to attract one of their own instead.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 8:55:47 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

When I engage in humiliation it is devoid of societal pleasantries and steeped in a primal energy that bellows 'mine' without apology

THAT is just fucking awesome

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 9:40:05 AM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel
I can wrap my head around most kinks.  Even the ones I don't share.  This one still has me confuzzled.


It probably always will. When I am in that position I simply accept that people sometimes dig things that I do not and carry on. Trying to figure out why I don't "get it" is harder than actually doing said kink and trying to enjoy it.



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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 9:58:46 AM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

She's a beast, that one. A lovely thang!


Thanks Icarys


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 10:51:43 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

When I engage in humiliation it is devoid of societal pleasantries and steeped in a primal energy that bellows 'mine' without apology

THAT is just fucking awesome


Thank you darling!

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 4:46:48 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I think we're on different sides of the divide here.


Having been on both sides of the "slash", so to speak, I don't believe that's what's going on.



quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
...it would stand to reason that there will be those who view the act through the eyes of the one providing it. If he says it's great, that's what it is. End of discussion.


That certainly stands to reason, but exploring just how far that logic extends is always worth a second look. Would you resolve toward only looking through your Master's eyes when he abjectly humiliates you, say, in front of your relatives during a cozy family dinner at your Mother's house? Or spreads images of your mouth made urinal around to all your co-workers/clients? Probably not. Of course those examples are a little extreme, but they are offered to test the "if he thinks it's great, end of discussion" idea where this subject is concerned, and secondly to demonstrate that desire of humiliation in the submissive party, even in it's widest sense, is finite. Resiliency in surviving humiliation as a slave, however, is another matter, though I wouldn't say that's the same as being "into it".

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 6:46:19 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Having been on both sides of the "slash", so to speak, I don't believe that's what's going on.


Are you eliminating all possibilities with that remark? Or lending the suggestion that in your experience "this" is the probable answer, yet acknowledging the possibility (and probability if you will) that exceptions do exist that you've not encountered?

quote:

That certainly stands to reason, but exploring just how far that logic extends is always worth a second look. Would you resolve toward only looking through your Master's eyes when he abjectly humiliates you, say, in front of your relatives during a cozy family dinner at your Mother's house? Or spreads images of your mouth made urinal around to all your co-workers/clients? Probably not. Of course those examples are a little extreme, but they are offered to test the "if he thinks it's great, end of discussion" idea where this subject is concerned, and secondly to demonstrate that desire of humiliation in the submissive party, even in it's widest sense, is finite.


I'm definitely the wrong example for this discussion. You're asking me to make a choice that I've already decided upon long before the incidents unfolded. And with all due respect, it feels rather odd to argue this position. As for the ramifications of that decision...

The familial example is of no consequence. What that suggests is the realities of my position and their long standing policy of non involvement. Add to this their awareness of my surrendered state, the revelation of compromising imagery that fell into my mother's hands, a distaste for confrontation in social situations, and an unflinching defense of my person irregardless if he's made me look foolish in their eyes. The act will be seen as a manifestation of his character and not a defect of my own. If communication was not permitted after its occurrence I'd receive a check or electronic deposit as a sympathetic gesture. And the matter would be put to rest.

I have no career threat to concern myself with. I jumped ship sometime ago. If we extended the idea to friends their response would range from, "ooh that's hot" to "you're such a slut" and nothing further. It's probable that they'd get off since we have the same fetishes for the most part. Please keep in mind, I have intentionally removed impediments that would prevent me from living my life in the manner indicated. My risk factor is far less than most and I'm not oblivious to that. It reflects my priority and commitment to living my truth as opposed to fostering a fantasy in my head. My desire to live as property can be readily undertaken.

And in all fairness, you cannot test these things from afar. We'll engage in a circular argument concerning the respective points made. But in the end you cannot know unless you're in the position to implement the situations suggested. At best we're debating a theoretical possibility who's outcome would remain a mystery. What I found most troubling regarding the examples presented was not its content, but the suggestion that his directive could not be digested in the manner stated. You present the remark with a slight twinge of disbelief. While I don't deny it may not hold true for all, there are those with an intrinsic need to live according to the principles mentioned. It is not a piece of fanciful lingo for me. I aspire to edify that in its entirety.

quote:

Resiliency in surviving humiliation as a slave, however, is another matter, though I wouldn't say that's the same as being "into it".


I'm very resilient, but no longer have to lean upon my strength for sustenance. That is why my Keeper exists. The burden is not mine to shoulder nor to repair. I'm required to do my job, not his. I am certain that if he seeks to decimate he has the capacity and willingness to reconstruct my frame. Should he elect to abandon the task or the project overall, I'm in possession of the resources required for its completion. One would hope it would never come to that, but just in case...

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 7:02:36 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		There is so much here which has me standing in awe. Masters/Dominants who I have can learn so much from although in some cases I would be ready to go to combat mode with, (probably as a matter of respect than anything else). Many of whom I am proud to call friend and share some modicum of mutual respect.

I read from so many women here, who leave me with my mouth open and a burning desire to own just one such as a personal slave and an awareness that such ownership is aeons away. The intelligence, poise, graciousness and the articulation is rare enough especially coupled with the willingness to do what it takes to be found pleasing in service. A rare breed in\deed and one which also teaches a not so dumb ass Dominant his shortcomings. To engage in humiliation with such a slave, for me, is not a matter of pleasure but is prepared to o'throw personal conventions to subjugate herself in such a way that is both horrific and yet loving, is a matter of wonder that such acts seem a matter of worship of the dynamic as of the Dominant involved, who can elicit such responses.

So much to learn, so much to understand and so, little time to do either let alone both.. Ahh well in the words of Ned Kelly: “Such is life!”

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/19/2011 10:26:38 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Are you eliminating all possibilities with that remark?


I'm letting you know it's not a matter of not having been here or there. Exceptions can and do exist. I believe I made it clear early on they are rare to nearly non-existent, however. Only a select few are so robotic or self-loathing as to make fertile ground for indefinite limits of humiliation without eventual crisis.



quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
At best we're debating a theoretical possibility who's outcome would remain a mystery. What I found most troubling regarding the examples presented was not its content, but the suggestion that his directive could not be digested in the manner stated.


The scenarios were theoretical examples, and ones I think many can relate to as deeply violating and terribly humiliating, but they are by no means the only ones available. Not by a long shot, considering the deviant creativity of the human mind. The overall point I'm asserting is much of this isn't theoretical to me. I've seen and experienced a great variety of actors and stages, and have been on those stages myself. I have yet to see anyone who isn't capable of being "mind hacked" to the negative.


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
You present the remark with a slight twinge of disbelief. While I don't deny it may not hold true for all, there are those with an intrinsic need to live according to the principles mentioned. It is not a piece of fanciful lingo for me. I aspire to edify that in its entirety.


First, yes, I do have a pet peeve (or twinge of disbelief) about "humiliation", for the reasons already mentioned. Second, I'm suspecting at this point two subjects are possibly being conflated: love of humiliation vs. loyalty/passion in servitude, the latter of which while, containing any sum of real humiliation, doesn't usually make a fetish of exploring every inch of the sliding scale for "fun".

To bend and break? Too condition? To reduce? That I'll buy.



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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/20/2011 12:04:44 AM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I'm letting you know it's not a matter of not having been here or there. Exceptions can and do exist. I believe I made it clear early on they are rare to nearly non-existent, however. Only a select few are so robotic or self-loathing as to make fertile ground for indefinite limits of humiliation without eventual crisis.


The previous points weren't misunderstood. I merely sought to clarify the portion noted for my own purposes. I appreciate your willingness to do so. While I cannot speak to their rarity with the same surety you've posed, I'm in agreement that long bouts of repeated humiliation would probably have a very unpleasant outcome.

quote:

The overall point I'm asserting is much of this isn't theoretical to me. I've seen and experienced a great variety of actors and stages, and have been on those stages myself. I have yet to see anyone who isn't capable of being "mind hacked" to the negative.


My assumption from your original remarks is that you viewed the phenomenon from a different perspective that was in contradiction to the position raised. I merely inferred the likelihood of others sharing a similar opinion. Nor am I suggesting that there aren't negative consequences involved when igniting volatile areas. I was after a different answer and I've gotten it in a roundabout way.

quote:

Second, I'm suspecting at this point two subjects are possibly being conflated: love of humiliation vs. loyalty/passion in servitude, the latter of which while, containing any sum of real humiliation, doesn't usually make a fetish of exploring every inch of the sliding scale for "fun".


Point taken and you're correct. Servitude is simply the vehicle (albeit a pleasurable one) that allows for greater discoveries and experiences down the rabbit hole. I wouldn't categorize the experience as fun per se, but it appeals on a level I don't fully understand.

quote:

To bend and break? Too condition? To reduce? That I'll buy.


That's the goal.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/20/2011 12:28:19 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Having been on both sides of the "slash", so to speak, I don't believe that's what's going on.



Just a matter of semantics old friend, but would you mind terribly not using the term "SLASH" as it is a common Euphemism for shit, hat hit, crap poo.... As you can imagine I think, the volume of hysterical laughter for BC is mounting with each use of the term as it gets substituted into the rest of the sentence..



< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/20/2011 12:30:19 AM >

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Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/20/2011 3:24:05 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

When I choose a girl I want her to be proud to be mine. I want her to wear her collar proudly and say, "See! I am special because master chose me." I want to be proud of owning her.


Okay, I'll start with this and maybe you can relate.


It's not the fall.

Wallowing in muck really isn't much fun on a general entertainment level for me but it does two things. It forces me to evaluate why I allow myself to feel such a thing as humiliation in the first place. What words or deeds are below the station of a slave? Not much is the answer in my head, so why should certain actions, phrases etc., effect me in such a way as I feel that particular emotional distress? The other thing is what must I do to cast off whatever is holding me back in that moment when I might as well be as nothing for all the ego I have left because, See, I am special because Master chose me so, to my mind, there should be nothing off limits, nothing which makes me feel bad or hurt because regardless of where the bottom of the pool may be, at the end of the day, his hand will be there to help me back to my feet. Being humiliated, then, is a tool for growth and there are few things that I enjoy more than traveling a path which leads to growth and *that* is why I enjoy it.

It's the rise back up.

When I get out of that space in my head that allows me to feel humiliated, it has built up my immunity to that particular Kryptonite just a wee bit. I respect the tool and if used with discretion, not too often so that there is plenty of healing time in between, it can be quite effective to my education as well as strengthen me and making me better .. as a person, as a slave, as a possession.. whatever he decides I am to him. In a state of humiliation, he can crush me because it is when I am my most vulnerable.. he can take it too far.. it's a risk for both of us but Himself is a pretty savvy owner and I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to destroy me in a way which will detract from my value to him.

Through all that.. He still wants me. When I am covered in whatever putrid mixture he's concocted, whether it's physical, mental or emotional.. when I am the worst, the most vile.. He still chooses me. That pretty much rocks.






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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/20/2011 8:09:44 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

See, I am special because Master chose me so, to my mind, there should be nothing off limits, nothing which makes me feel bad or hurt because regardless of where the bottom of the pool may be, at the end of the day, his hand will be there to help me back to my feet. Being humiliated, then, is a tool for growth and there are few things that I enjoy more than traveling a path which leads to growth and *that* is why I enjoy it.


Bita,

I really enjoyed your remarks. You expressed them so succinctly. While I realize our desires may differ slightly, the outcome is quite similar. For me, the growth, freedom and inevitable change are a huge catalyst behind its appeal and why other activities along those lines are of great importance. It isn't something I fetishize, but have come discover I need in ways that are still revealing themselves. Thank you for chiming in. :)

quote:

Through all that.. He still wants me. When I am covered in whatever putrid mixture he's concocted, whether it's physical, mental or emotional.. when I am the worst, the most vile.. He still chooses me. That pretty much rocks.


I agree. And that's pretty darned priceless in my book.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/20/2011 9:02:13 AM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Just a matter of semantics old friend, but would you mind terribly not using the term "SLASH" as it is a common Euphemism for shit, hat hit, crap poo.... As you can imagine I think, the volume of hysterical laughter for BC is mounting with each use of the term as it gets substituted into the rest of the sentence..


Now there's some semantics. Everything in language, logic and meaning can be chalked up to that, I'm afraid (semantics, not excrement).

As for "slash", I share your distaste (among many others) of the word, but not the musician; my use of it was in reference to a comment by the poised, gracious and ever articulate Porcelaine.

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RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. - 3/20/2011 9:02:58 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		i have to agree, BitaTrouble ^_^ very nicely said. 

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