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Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 11:48:21 AM   
StrangerThan


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And last week some guy was bashed by the politicos for saying that Gadhafi would probably win.

So, do we only want to hear what we want to hear? Are we afraid radical muslims will take over the country if we help the rebels? Do we just like our gas as cheap as possible and think that Gadhafi in power will help make it so?

I'm wondering where in watching people fighting for freedom, we figure it's the right thing to do to sit by and do virtually nothing.



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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 1:36:38 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		I think we should help the rebels in humanitarian ways. I do NOT want our service members in 3 wars.

Qadhaffi (I don't think I ever spell that name the same way twice) was extremely clever in exploiting the general feeling in the Mid-East that the only countries we get involved with are oil producing. He said it will be proof positive if we get involved that we just want their oil.

We derided Bush (rightly so) for interfering with other countries' sovereignity (sp?). Obama is taking care that we don't do that again.

On the other hand I wish we would do all we could to support the rebels.

The only organizations that are currently able to provide leadership are mostly Muslim. We have to accept the fact that we can't predict what governments will replace the falling dictatorships. We also should not try to tilt things "our way" behind the scenes either. Look what that nutured until very recently.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 2:01:07 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

I'm wondering where in watching people fighting for freedom, we figure it's the right thing to do to sit by and do virtually nothing.
What can you really do...its their fight. And yes, unfortunately it looks to me like Qaddafi is going to win...at least this round.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 2:08:47 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		We only get 1 % of our oil from Libya. As bad as it is, this one we stay away from.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 2:16:13 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I would like to see France wipe that fuckwad out.   We took over Viet Nam and showed them how to do it (LOL) after they fucked around for about 15 years, so they can take it from us this round. 

If we hadn't fucked ourselves by porsecuting our vital interests in Iraq....I would want to be in there with both fuckin feet.


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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 2:32:55 PM   
StrangerThan


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Status: offline 		One of my uncles was on a troop transport off Cuba during the Bay of Pigs. He was a marine, expecting to go ashore until orders came down to stand by.

He said he sat and listened to people die.

In Gadhafi (and note to hlen, same here. His name has about as many variations as his clothes often do) we have a known criminal, known terrorist, we're watching him commit atrocity after atrocity, watching him hire mercenaries to kill his own people, dealing with a man who some say used wmd's in the form of gas during earlier wars).

I brought up the bay of pigs because it kind of feels like the same thing, watching people die who want to be free and need a little help they're not going to get.


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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 2:38:57 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'm wondering where in watching people fighting for freedom, we figure it's the right thing to do to sit by and do virtually nothing.



What would you suggest we do?

How many conflicts do we have the resources to involve ourselves in?

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 4:10:17 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		It's frustrating not to do "something". Our independence would not have been won without aid from France. It's bone-chilling to think what Q. will do to the vanquished.


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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 4:14:33 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I'm wondering where in watching people fighting for freedom, we figure it's the right thing to do to sit by and do virtually nothing.



What would you suggest we do?

How many conflicts do we have the resources to involve ourselves in?



It's not just us rule, the world knows what he is -- even his neighbors.

In the realm of supporting people however, we usually seem to be on the wrong side once history plays out. In the end, both sides will have reason to hate. The madman because we called for him to step down. The rebels because we sat by and let him do what he's doing.

What Gadhafi seems to understand is that no one is going to do anything until everyone decides to get on board and not all are going to play -- which leaves him freedom to do pretty much what he wants. Of course, there will be calls for war crimes and freezing of assets. He and his sons may be limited to living on Libyan soil the rest of their lives but when it comes to suffering, those who will suffer most from frozen assets and embargoes are the very people the world would want to overthrow him.

In any case, this wasn't an Iraq or Afghanistan.


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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 6:43:39 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

We only get 1 % of our oil from Libya. As bad as it is, this one we stay away from.


From someone who says Iraq wasnt about oil, this just about sums it up.

What % of the oil supply would it need before you started crying "liberation" again

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 6:50:37 PM   
Sanity


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Obama (great leader of the free world that he is) tried to get France to take care of Gaddafi but, hard as it may be to believe,  France just wasnt up to the job.

Maybe during the next crisis if he can get off of the golf course in time he should ask Canada to handle the problem


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I would like to see France wipe that fuckwad out.   We took over Viet Nam and showed them how to do it (LOL) after they fucked around for about 15 years, so they can take it from us this round. 

If we hadn't fucked ourselves by porsecuting our vital interests in Iraq....I would want to be in there with both fuckin feet.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/15/2011 6:52:08 PM >

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 7:06:16 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Wrong again Sanity. France and the UK have been trying to get the west to start a no fly zone. Germany, America and others have been reluctant. Still, no need to let your opinions cloud reality is there.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 7:11:09 PM   
Sanity


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Oh, so your position is, Obama wont let France help those poor souls liberate themselves?

And thats supposed to be better?

And you dont think Obamas stopped partying and golfing long enough to phone a few of these people... or maybe its your position that Michelle wont let him get involved at any level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Wrong again Sanity. France and the UK have been trying to get the west to start a no fly zone. Germany, America and others have been reluctant. Still, no need to let your opinions cloud reality is there.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/15/2011 7:12:47 PM >

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 7:19:51 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Wrong again Sanity.....Thats twice in ten minutes. lol

A no fly zone is beyond the remit of most countries acting alone. The UK and France were willing to join America in enforcing one. In fact, they have put the issue to the UN today. You insinuate France are unwilling to get involved and you are incorrect. The biggest issue is the number of men and material needed to enforce this. Lets not forget Iraqs air defences were destroyed in the first Gulf war, so Bush`s and Majors no fly zone was easier to set up.

My own view is where do we start if we stop. I am sure as hell the west wont interfere in Bahrain or Saudi.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 7:23:19 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 7:28:25 PM   
Sanity


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Thats ripe. France was willing but "the leader of the free world" is afraid, says all that needs to be said about Mr Michelle Obama right there

And you dont quite grasp the insinuation about France, but thats to be expected

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Wrong again Sanity.....Thats twice in ten minutes. lol

A no fly zone is beyond the remit of most countries acting alone. The UK and France were willing to join America in enforcing one. In fact, they have put the issue to the UN today. You insinuate France are unwilling to get involved and you are incorrect. The biggest issue is the number of men and material needed to enforce this. Lets not forget Iraqs air defences were destroyed in the first Gulf war, so Bush`s and Majors no fly zone was easier to set up.

My own view is where do we start if we stop. I am sure as hell the west wont interfere in Bahrain or Saudi.


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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 8:24:29 PM   
stellauk


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Status: offline 		Personally I think the Iranian rebels - who are largely ignored by the media - need our help a bit more than those in Libya or anywhere else.

This is especially so as they have been literally stringing up political prisoners and homosexuals on average every 8 hours (yes, an execution every 8 hours) meaning now that the United States has lost its place as second leading executioner in the world.

United For Iran

Thing is these political prisoners are being tortured and executed for 'moharebeh' (enmity with God) which in this case roughly equates the same to enmity with Ahmadinejad and his nutty Iranian clerics.

There was a massive effort to save Habibollah Latifi a Kurdish student who was scheduled to be executed December 26. However international pressure persuaded the Iranians to stay the execution. Since then Latifi has disappeared.

Then there's the case of Saeed Malekpour, the naturalized Canadian web designer being held in Evin Prison.

Campaign to release Saeed Malekpour

Then there's this

Recent hanging in Iran

This is not quite the same situation as political rebels in Libya trying to overthrow Gaddafi, we are talking about a nation living in fear, a regime under Ahmadinejad which has zero respect for human rights. This is a country which tortures and executes routinely teenagers for sexual offences and now which anyone at any time for any reason can be arrested, held without trial, tortured and executed simply for 'moharebeh'.

The problem here is of course that Iran is the only Shiite Muslim state in the world, it might have nuclear weapons, it might not, and if you get it wrong the consequences can be far worse than you've anticipated.

But as we have seen before, our politicians and media can be quite selective over who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 8:35:09 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Sanity, let me ask you a question.

Do you honestly think the US has enough military assets to bear the brunt of enforcing a no fly zone over Libya?

Lets face facts, France and Great Britain really didnt do all that much in the no fly zone over Iraq, so why do you think they would provide more in this case?

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 8:36:50 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

It's frustrating not to do "something". Our independence would not have been won without aid from France. It's bone-chilling to think what Q. will do to the vanquished.



Hlen, I identify completely with your rage at the lack of options available to the US and the West re; Libya, Bahrain, Yemen etc. It is heart breaking to see people dying for their freedom and being unable to intervene to assist positively.

Sadly, the inescapable truth is this is the inevitable outcome of years of misguided Western policy towards the region. Major interventions (eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran(?) have all failed or are failing. Israel, the US's proxy army is worse than impotent, it is toxic in the Arab world. Buying tinpot potentates such as the King of Bahrain is backfiring big time.

The outcome is that the West cannot intervene to support positive changes, without local agreement, even though the ordinary people of the West would dearly love to help the ordinary people of the region. Hardly the first time this has happened either.

One thing we can all do is re-think the policies and strategic goals that have landed us in this position and change them to reflect the realities of the region and the aspirations of the peoples there for freedom and control of their own lives.

We mightn't be able to assist decisively this time round, but there's no need to marry ourselves to permanent impotence is there? Whatever the outcome of Libya now, freedom is yet to be enjoyed in most of the region. It is on the agenda now. Let's make our policies and goals relevant to that cause.

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RE: Gadhafi tells rebels to surrender - 3/15/2011 8:58:30 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		Obama, once again all words and no action, except that duck hook once a round. We are clearly perceived by our friends as an unreliable ally and by our enemies as a paper tiger. Nice hand, sir.

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