RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/22/2011 11:22:36 PM)

The rapid change in the course of events in Libya seem to add up to a compelling case that the NFZ was initiated just in time to be effective. It seems safe to say the thousands of lives have been saved, and the course of the Libyan revolution changed for the better.

Multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, they can be unwieldy and slow to react to events but they are certainly effective when done properly. The muted level of criticism from countries who can usually be relied upon to criticise Western policy illustrates how effective multi-lateralism can be in disarming critics.

Has everyone learnt the lesson? Am I being overly optimistic in expecting those who criticised multi-lateral approaches on these boards to accept that their criticisms were unwarranted and to recant? I fear so .... but would love to be wrong.




jlf1961 -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 1:14:52 PM)

I always thought a "no-fly zone" was to deny a country's air forces the ability to conduct air operations.

Since when is it part of the operation to conduct operations against ground forces?




Politesub53 -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 1:20:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I always thought a "no-fly zone" was to deny a country's air forces the ability to conduct air operations.

Since when is it part of the operation to conduct operations against ground forces?


As I said earlier, the UN mandate wasnt for a no fly zone, but to protect civillians. One question that might crop up is what if the rebels gain power and start killing civillians on the other side.




kdsub -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 2:48:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I always thought a "no-fly zone" was to deny a country's air forces the ability to conduct air operations.

Since when is it part of the operation to conduct operations against ground forces?


As I said earlier, the UN mandate wasnt for a no fly zone, but to protect civillians. One question that might crop up is what if the rebels gain power and start killing civillians on the other side.


Politesub you have to stop trying to confuse people with your libby babble ...Everyone knows who the bad guys are...sheeesh …just watch Fox.

Butch




Marini -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 8:22:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The rapid change in the course of events in Libya seem to add up to a compelling case that the NFZ was initiated just in time to be effective. It seems safe to say the thousands of lives have been saved, and the course of the Libyan revolution changed for the better.

Multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, they can be unwieldy and slow to react to events but they are certainly effective when done properly. The muted level of criticism from countries who can usually be relied upon to criticise Western policy illustrates how effective multi-lateralism can be in disarming critics.

Has everyone learnt the lesson? Am I being overly optimistic in expecting those who criticised multi-lateral approaches on these boards to accept that their criticisms were unwarranted and to recant? I fear so .... but would love to be wrong.


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.

Don't expect the critics to have learnt their "lessons", especially on these boards.

The situation in Libya remains extremely perilous and unstable, I still don't see how this
will end favorable without some support on the ground.
Gadhaffi troops are currently attacking a hospital in Misrata, and those in the hospital are paralyzed by fear.
Gadhaffi troops attack Misrata hospital

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 8:29:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.



Yeah, they are much quicker to fall apart...as this one threatens to do.




Marini -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 8:36:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.



Yeah, they are much quicker to fall apart...as this one threatens to do.


It may indeed "fall apart" without ground support, I hope you don't think that this is a good thing.




rulemylife -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 8:44:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.



So you want someone else to send in ground troops, just not us?

Isn't that more or less bait and switch?




Marini -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 8:49:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.



So you want someone else to send in ground troops, just not us?

Isn't that more or less bait and switch?



If the coalition decided to intervene with the no-fly zone, than the coalition might have to intervene with ground support.
That would involve sending in troops from everyone in the coalition.

By the way, I am not the President of the US and this was not my call.
IF we were going to get involved as a "coalition" I think we should have done it a few weeks ago, which is why I titled this thread, "Is it too late for a no-fly zone to be effective?"




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 8:58:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.



Yeah, they are much quicker to fall apart...as this one threatens to do.


It may indeed "fall apart" without ground support, I hope you don't think that this is a good thing.


Good or bad isnt the point when it was inevitable to begin with.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 9:49:18 PM)

OK, I'm gonna weigh in with something wierd.

The No Fly Zone is to protect civillians.

That makes anything threatening civilians fair game.

Here's the kicker.

A "civilian" is anyone not sworn into the military.

That means that (by a wierd definition) ALL the rebels are civilians and any time quadaffi's troops attack 'civilians', they are fair game.


Gettin convoluted eh?




Hillwilliam -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 9:51:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.



So you want someone else to send in ground troops, just not us?

Isn't that more or less bait and switch?


If it comes to that, I'll paraphrase a bad sci fi movie.

We do the flyin', they do the dyin'




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/23/2011 10:02:25 PM)

"protecting civilians" is COA doublespeak. There is no way to protect civilians without regime change. He just is more concerned about his politcal ass to be a leader.




popeye1250 -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 1:42:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

Newt Gingrich Says President Obama is "Spectator in Chief"


Newt Gingrich has taken time away from mulling his presidential run to take shots at President Obama. Gingrich fired at Obama, calling him a "spectator in chief" while accusing him of being passive in the face of crises in Japan and Libya.

Gingrich, considering a run for the presidency in 2012, joined other Republicans in criticizing the president, accusing him of sitting back too much in his response to major crisis situations, The Hill reported Wednesday.

"Well, I think what is increasingly clear is that we have a spectator in chief instead of a commander in chief," Gingrich said on Fox News.

"It is maybe the most passive and out-of-touch presidency in modern American history," he said, accusing the president of "avoiding his job right now."


http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_7162.shtml




Michael Savage calls Obama, "The Accidental President."




Politesub53 -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 4:12:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"protecting civilians" is COA doublespeak. There is no way to protect civilians without regime change. He just is more concerned about his politcal ass to be a leader.


Do I have to point out everything to you. Protecting civillians is the UN Mandate, not as you have implied Obamas own words.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 4:18:39 AM)

"America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. "

John Quincy Adams 1821





tazzygirl -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 5:19:54 AM)

quote:

Michael Savage calls Obama, "The Accidental President."


Has he ever supported anything the President has ever done?




tweakabelle -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 3:37:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Don't expect the critics to have learnt their "lessons", especially on these boards.



Smart call Marini. Tho it's kinda amusing to see the criticism instantly morph from "You can't put multi-lateral forces together" to "Multi-lateral forces fall apart" ......

Is this the CM version of that saying: You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 3:49:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"protecting civilians" is COA doublespeak. There is no way to protect civilians without regime change. He just is more concerned about his politcal ass to be a leader.


Do I have to point out everything to you. Protecting civillians is the UN Mandate, not as you have implied Obamas own words.


And the UN wouldnt cover for Obama (and the entire coalition really) at Rice' behest? Youre far too naive for this world.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? (3/24/2011 3:51:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Don't expect the critics to have learnt their "lessons", especially on these boards.



Smart call Marini. Tho it's kinda amusing to see the criticism instantly morph from "You can't put multi-lateral forces together" to "Multi-lateral forces fall apart" ......

Is this the CM version of that saying: You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink?


If you are referring to my post in another thread, as I recall it was that multi-lateral TALKS have never worked. They still haven't. I have never said anything about multi-lateral forces.




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