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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:24:59 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		so anyone should be allowed to keep their loved one on lifesupport indefinitely??
with no chance of recovery?
Yeah thats a shovel of shit in any country


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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:31:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The heading.. vegetative state... or did you miss that? His is a progressive neurodegenerative disease.

The point you seem to be missing is that there are a number of neurological disorders that cause no pain to speak of. How do YOU know he's feeling pain? Have you read something that specifically states so? So far from what I've read, there's no indication of it, so the use of the word suffering isn't warranted in a physical sense.




First, I know he can feel.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/exclusive-videos-show-vegetable-baby-joseph-reacting-to-parents

Second, no one said he was in pain now. Had pneumonia? A cut on your neck? Both are painful.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:33:27 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Ken, the Texas law doesn't restrict the family's right to go pay a private doctor somewhere else. Living wills and DNRs are moot in this case, and I already said that the wishes of the individual should come before the next of kin.

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:35:34 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

But your real concern is the baby?  Right?



No. I agree with the doctors who think he's a cute potato.

My question is whether the final say on euthanasia vs. heroic measures lies with the individual, or with the government.

Sorry you don't like the thread title. I thought it was nicely eyecatching. As I also said in the OP, I'm sure some people would prefer to call them life panels, or just mash it into bureaucratic gobbledy gook, but a group of people, who aren't the family, getting the final say in end of life care needs to be called a spade. Or even a fucking shovel, if that's what it takes.


No, it wasn't meant to be eye-catching and we both know it.

It was meant to be an attack on the health care reform law.

And again, that group of people who currently get the final say in the end of life here are called Kaiser, Anthem, and whatever other health insurance company you can name.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/19/2011 11:40:47 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:36:53 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The heading.. vegetative state... or did you miss that? His is a progressive neurodegenerative disease.

The point you seem to be missing is that there are a number of neurological disorders that cause no pain to speak of. How do YOU know he's feeling pain? Have you read something that specifically states so? So far from what I've read, there's no indication of it, so the use of the word suffering isn't warranted in a physical sense.




First, I know he can feel.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/exclusive-videos-show-vegetable-baby-joseph-reacting-to-parents

Second, no one said he was in pain now. Had pneumonia? A cut on your neck? Both are painful.

An infection in the trach site, unpleasant
and certainly not helping the poor lil chap


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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:40:01 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, it wasn't meant to be eye-catching and we both know it.




So you've gone from being unable to read the whole of the OP, to being able to read my mind... Got it.

It obviously caught your eye.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:43:46 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Risch, the point we keep bringing to your attention and that you keep missing or ignoring, is that it was the child's doctors who made the decision that cutting a hole in the child's throat was not a medically sound decision - not the government. Their decision was supported by the Ontario Consent and Capacity Board, an independent council that is made up of doctors, lawyers, and laypersons selected from the general public, and an appeals judge. The "government" did not make this decision, no matter how badly you want to think it did. 

I just can't begin to understand what you're going on about here. The boy is dying, and the parents have asked the doctors to perform a completely unnecessary procedure simply to make themselves feel better about the matter. The doctors quite rightly said no. That's what doctors do - that's their job, to make medical decisions. What the parents want has absolutely nothing to do with it if there's not a medically sound reason, and if there is such a reason, I have yet to see anyone put it out there. You guys are arguing solely from emotion. I respect where it's coming from, but you have to see that there's just no substance to it.



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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:46:57 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Risch, the point we keep bringing to your attention and that you keep missing or ignoring, is that it was the child's doctors who made the decision that cutting a hole in the child's throat was not a medically sound decision - not the government. Their decision was supported by the Ontario Consent and Capacity Board, an independent council that is made up of doctors, lawyers, and laypersons selected from the general public, and an appeals judge. The "government" did not make this decision, no matter how badly you want to think it did. 

I just can't begin to understand what you're going on about here. The boy is dying, and the parents have asked the doctors to perform a completely unnecessary procedure simply to make themselves feel better about the matter. The doctors quite rightly said no. That's what doctors do - that's their job, to make medical decisions. What the parents want has absolutely nothing to do with it if there's not a medically sound reason, and if there is such a reason, I have yet to see anyone put it out there. You guys are arguing solely from emotion. I respect where it's coming from, but you have to see that there's just no substance to it.



Why was the Trach done for the other sibling? Did it prolong the child's life? How long did the child live afterward? so on and so on. Lots of questions and few real answers..only speculation.


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:47:52 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Why was the Trach done for the other sibling? Did it prolong the child's life? How long did the child live afterward? so on and so on. Lots of questions and few real answers..only speculation.


Medicine, like other things, change over the course of eight years.

And, actually, it prolonged her life by six months.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 3/19/2011 11:51:18 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:50:50 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Why was the Trach done for the other sibling? Did it prolong the child's life? How long did the child live afterward? so on and so on. Lots of questions and few real answers..only speculation.


Medicine, like other things, change over the course of eight years.

True but speculation in this case if you think that answers it directly and you can now wash your hands of it.

Logic would lead me to believe there is something behind the Trach that WE don't know or aren't being told.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 3/19/2011 11:51:18 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:52:26 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		A Trach doesnt necessarily require a machine, A breathing tube does.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:53:30 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

And, actually, it prolonged her life by six months.

Finally found it on Google? Where's the link if you don't mind.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 3/19/2011 11:55:02 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:54:37 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

A Trach doesnt necessarily require a machine, A breathing tube does.

Yes I know.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 11:54:44 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, it wasn't meant to be eye-catching and we both know it.




So you've gone from being unable to read the whole of the OP, to being able to read my mind... Got it.

It obviously caught your eye.

He has trouble figuring out what's on his mind..How would he know what you're thinking.



Just ask me Neo, and I'll let you know everything on my mind.

But just as a suggestion, maybe you should stay out of other people's discussions and have the balls to talk to someone directly.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:21:24 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Risch, the point we keep bringing to your attention and that you keep missing or ignoring, is that it was the child's doctors who made the decision that cutting a hole in the child's throat was not a medically sound decision - not the government. Their decision was supported by the Ontario Consent and Capacity Board, an independent council that is made up of doctors, lawyers, and laypersons selected from the general public, and an appeals judge. The "government" did not make this decision, no matter how badly you want to think it did. 

I just can't begin to understand what you're going on about here. The boy is dying, and the parents have asked the doctors to perform a completely unnecessary procedure simply to make themselves feel better about the matter. The doctors quite rightly said no. That's what doctors do - that's their job, to make medical decisions. What the parents want has absolutely nothing to do with it if there's not a medically sound reason, and if there is such a reason, I have yet to see anyone put it out there. You guys are arguing solely from emotion. I respect where it's coming from, but you have to see that there's just no substance to it.




You're leaving out the key part of the sequence, Panda. The part where the alternative to this ultimately pointless procedure is just shutting the machinery off, and who was being given the last word on that.

Breathing tubes are problematic. They start causing all sorts of critical problems when used for too long. A tracheotomy is the next step.

Of course it's the government. Canada has socialized medicine. The Ontario Consent and Capacity Board is as much the government as a parole board is.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:32:23 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

A tracheotomy is the next step.

Why even do it if there wasn't something to be gained from it. Tazzy says the other sibling lived 6 more months..for some that may not be "worth" it but I'm sure to the parents it is.

I think it's there choice and if it can't be shown in a real physical sense that this is hurting the child. I say let them have 6 more months with their dying baby. I know I'd want that "choice" if I were in their shoes.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:36:06 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Risch, the point we keep bringing to your attention and that you keep missing or ignoring, is that it was the child's doctors who made the decision that cutting a hole in the child's throat was not a medically sound decision - not the government. Their decision was supported by the Ontario Consent and Capacity Board, an independent council that is made up of doctors, lawyers, and laypersons selected from the general public, and an appeals judge. The "government" did not make this decision, no matter how badly you want to think it did. 

I just can't begin to understand what you're going on about here. The boy is dying, and the parents have asked the doctors to perform a completely unnecessary procedure simply to make themselves feel better about the matter. The doctors quite rightly said no. That's what doctors do - that's their job, to make medical decisions. What the parents want has absolutely nothing to do with it if there's not a medically sound reason, and if there is such a reason, I have yet to see anyone put it out there. You guys are arguing solely from emotion. I respect where it's coming from, but you have to see that there's just no substance to it.




You're leaving out the key part of the sequence, Panda. The part where the alternative to this ultimately pointless procedure is just shutting the machinery off, and who was being given the last word on that.

Breathing tubes are problematic. They start causing all sorts of critical problems when used for too long. A tracheotomy is the next step.

Of course it's the government. Canada has socialized medicine. The Ontario Consent and Capacity Board is as much the government as a parole board is.

Did you miss that this has gone thru numerous specialists and even numerous american hospitals didnt want to touch this case, We have more than five hospitals in the great white north, hell there are more than five just in Toronto, including the best kids hospital this side of  great ormond street
this wasnt made a decision in short thrift. and the govmnt was a last resort for the parents
didnt shiavo get to the supreme court? or just of the state?
whats the difference

To pretend otherwise is disengenious of you

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 3/19/2011 1:28:56 PM >

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:36:23 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

A tracheotomy is the next step.

Why even do it if there wasn't something to be gained from it. Tazzy says the other sibling lived 6 more months..for some that may not be "worth" it but I'm sure to the parents it is.

I think it's there choice and if it can't be shown in a real physical sense that this is hurting the child. I say let them have 6 more months with their dying baby. I know I'd want that "choice" if I were in their shoes.



So, the circumstances in this case  are exactly the same as with the other baby?


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:38:53 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

So, the circumstances in this case are exactly the same as with the other baby?

No, not implying they are.Similar issues though from what I'm reading.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 3/19/2011 12:39:51 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:42:04 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Risch, the point we keep bringing to your attention and that you keep missing or ignoring, is that it was the child's doctors who made the decision that cutting a hole in the child's throat was not a medically sound decision - not the government. Their decision was supported by the Ontario Consent and Capacity Board, an independent council that is made up of doctors, lawyers, and laypersons selected from the general public, and an appeals judge. The "government" did not make this decision, no matter how badly you want to think it did. 

I just can't begin to understand what you're going on about here. The boy is dying, and the parents have asked the doctors to perform a completely unnecessary procedure simply to make themselves feel better about the matter. The doctors quite rightly said no. That's what doctors do - that's their job, to make medical decisions. What the parents want has absolutely nothing to do with it if there's not a medically sound reason, and if there is such a reason, I have yet to see anyone put it out there. You guys are arguing solely from emotion. I respect where it's coming from, but you have to see that there's just no substance to it.




You're leaving out the key part of the sequence, Panda. The part where the alternative to this ultimately pointless procedure is just shutting the machinery off, and who was being given the last word on that.

Breathing tubes are problematic. They start causing all sorts of critical problems when used for too long. A tracheotomy is the next step.

Of course it's the government. Canada has socialized medicine. The Ontario Consent and Capacity Board is as much the government as a parole board is.


Well, Lucy beat me to it and pretty much nailed it. Sorry, Rich, but to me this is just another completely irrational rant against "socialized medicine." Medical care is rationed in every country in the world, and along pretty much the same lines as in this case. If something is not medically warranted, the doctors are not going to do it, period, and it's no different here than it is there. From what I can see in  the article, the question of whether or not this was cost-effective was never even raised, because the decision-making process didn't even reach that point. The doctors said there's no justification for doing this to the patient, that's it, end of story. If you want to insist that there just has to be a government boogeyman somewhere in the mix, go ahead and knock yourself out, but nobody else here can figure out where you're getting it.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 120
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