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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:42:55 PM   
ModTwentyOne


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Status: offline 		And another thread in politics /religion degenerated to this:  

Please stop.




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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:43:46 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

So, the circumstances in this case are exactly the same as with the other baby?

No, not implying they are.Similar issues though from what I'm reading.



Well, if the circumstances are different, then a direct comparison can not be drawn. "Similar" means nothing. There could be any number of reasons this case is different than the last.


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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 12:48:06 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Well, if the circumstances are different, then a direct comparison can not be drawn. "Similar" means nothing. There could be any number of reasons this case is different than the last.

True but either side could be correct. It may be that the parents are holding onto something that worked with the last child but wouldn't work here.


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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 1:33:42 PM   
Icarys


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Wonder if this will be for a year like last time..Anyways..Enjoy!


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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 2:42:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Sorry, Rich, but to me this is just another completely irrational rant against "socialized medicine."



It's really more of an inevitable consequence of socialized medicine, than a rant against it, Panda, but we don't seem to be on the same page much, here. Quality of care, is were I do the ranting.

I was hoping one of our Canadian friends would offer a more complete view of who has the right to make decisions about end of life care, but the best I've seen was a note that situations like this are rare.





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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 3:01:14 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		It is rare... this has made headlines for a reason.
the only place that gave this family hope is the right to life people, and the ONE hospital
to even suggest that its a death panel is baiting pure and simple.
My mother inlaw was on lifesupport for ten days before the family decided to remove it.
Refusing to do a non palliative, INVASIVE procedure on a vegetative state child wasnt made by anyone but the docs



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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 4:06:34 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This, for instance, is a great example of an argument that would indeed have some heft in support of the idea that special cases could at least partially be made for family in situation where the degree of grief and emotional torment can be said to potentially be higher than normal.



In what case would the impending death of any family member not cause a great deal of grief and emotional torment?

So, you are proposing a rating system?

The hospitals will work extra hard if the grief level is an eight rather than a five?


Surely you read the rest of my comments and didn't take this snippet out of context as, alone, it reflects nothing close to my actual assessment of this specific case.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 4:08:06 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I just can't begin to understand what you're going on about here. The boy is dying, and the parents have asked the doctors to perform a completely unnecessary procedure simply to make themselves feel better about the matter. The doctors quite rightly said no. That's what doctors do - that's their job, to make medical decisions. What the parents want has absolutely nothing to do with it if there's not a medically sound reason, and if there is such a reason, I have yet to see anyone put it out there. You guys are arguing solely from emotion. I respect where it's coming from, but you have to see that there's just no substance to it.

Perfect.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 5:24:42 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Sorry, Rich, but to me this is just another completely irrational rant against "socialized medicine."



It's really more of an inevitable consequence of socialized medicine, than a rant against it, Panda, but we don't seem to be on the same page much, here. Quality of care, is were I do the ranting.


I think that where we diverge is that nobody's been able to demonstrate that what happened here has anything to do with Canada's health care system, other than the fact that the incident happened to have occurred in a country that happens to have government-run health care. The article states that this was a medical decision, not a financial issue or an allocation-of-resources issue.



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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 5:52:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
The article states that this was a medical decision, not a financial issue or an allocation-of-resources issue.


So it does, Panda. A medical decision imposed by a state monopoly that has the power to overrule the family.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:00:45 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Status: offline 		Doctors are a state monopoly?

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:03:49 PM   
outhere69


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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:05:28 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		A medical decision that was ignored and taken to court to be decided by THE COURT by the family, not the other way around
can you be any more obtuse?





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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:17:46 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Doctors are a state monopoly?


That seems to be the Canadian way, Panda. I don't see any of them showing up to clarify.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:20:41 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		why should they, you are ignoring everything thats been said so far




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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:29:07 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

A medical decision that was ignored and taken to court to be decided by THE COURT by the family, not the other way around
can you be any more obtuse?




There is a serious disconnect here, between our points of view. Absent a DNR or living will, which is not a factor in this case, that the family must go to court to stop the euthanasia reflects a very different relationship between the rights of the individual and the rights of the state than what is acceptable here. It's a simple matter of who is presumed to have the final say, before the courts get involved.

You seem a trifle obtuse to that distiction, yourself.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 3/19/2011 6:30:22 PM >

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:40:13 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

A medical decision that was ignored and taken to court to be decided by THE COURT by the family, not the other way around
can you be any more obtuse?




There is a serious disconnect here, between our points of view. Absent a DNR or living will, which is not a factor in this case, that the family must go to court to stop the euthanasia reflects a very different relationship between the rights of the individual and the rights of the state than what is acceptable here. It's a simple matter of who is presumed to have the final say, before the courts get involved.


It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing.


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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:40:44 PM   
Sanity


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Thats the socialist way, Rich. Government is god, government is nanny.

Or big brother, take your pick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That seems to be the Canadian way, Panda. I don't see any of them showing up to clarify.


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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:44:22 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Where in the world can you keeep a child alive indefinitely againt the advice of a plethora of doctors?
Twelve hospitals in the US refused to touch the case, why?
The baby isnt going to survive, but it has
nothing to do with the governemt killing off citizens
death  panel my arse



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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:52:02 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Thats the socialist way, Rich. Government is god, government is nanny.

Or big brother, take your pick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That seems to be the Canadian way, Panda. I don't see any of them showing up to clarify.


WIthout the socialist hc the child wouldnt have survived to its first birthday, the parents cannot afford this
there would have been no right to life group, it would just be another lousy american statistic
stop the dreck its not helping


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