RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 6:54:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Not really.

Why would you bother to present a perspective that was not yours?

Are you that altruistic?



Let's try multiple choice, shall we?

A. Playing dumb.

B. Being dumb.

C. Just visiting the planet.



Well, wasn't that cute?

You might find a bit more credibility by actually answering questions.

Even those you consider dumb.




Aneirin -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 6:56:40 AM)

quote:

There's a reason for this. When you stifle human individuality and enforce conformity among a group of people you encourage people to believe that the majority is always right and also hostility towards those who don't fit in with the norm.

This is true if you were born and raised in a one horse town in the middle of Nebraska, in the middle of a massive land mass composed of other states which is the United States. Head anywhere out of Nebraska in any direction and you will come to other states with one horse towns which are pretty much the same as Nebraska.

This is also true if you were circumcized as a child, were conditioned to pray five times a day east towards Mecca, believing in your Muslim brotherhood and that Muhammad is the one and only true prophet and Allah is the one and only true God.

We have the same thing here in the UK. Take somewhere as Yorkshire, for example. Yorkshire on a map is five different counties - West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Cleveland and Humberside, but in people's heads it's still Yorkshire, there is still that same parochialism, the same as what you find in Northern Ireland, in Scotland, in Wales, the same as what you find anywhere else.

This is why when that person moves from the one horse town in Nebraska to somewhere like New York, like someone from Yorkshire moving to London, they feel alone and isolated among all the diversity, the differences in people's faces, they feel alienated, and this explains why some of them join cults and other subcultures.

This is why we also have the Taliban in the first place. When you are conditioned to believe that the West in all its cultural superiority is immoral, indecent, when you feel it goes against the fundamental teachings of Islam you start to feel defensive and start wanting to do something about it.

It's the exact same logic and thinking as the reaction to 9/11 and the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, which most Americans perceived to be an attack on Americans, their way of life, their culture, their identity and this is what started the whole war on terrorism.

This is why it's such a problem for Americans right now. The Internet is working against what we believe to be American culture, and that what was once internal, existing only within the borders of the United States, is transcending the borders simply through being online and accessible to people from all over the world - take this message board for example. It's breaking down that cultural imperialism the Americans once had, and showing American society and culture in its true light.

Thing is, if you are a public person, such as a preacher, a politician, just like an actor or a singer, you have a greater influence on society and culture and this carries with it a moral responsibility not shared with the rest of society. This is because you are representative. You also share some of the responsibility of how people respond and react to what you say, what you do, and how you express yourself in a public capacity.

Ever wondered why it is illegal to burn a national flag? Or to destroy a banknote? It's not just the burning of the cloth or the paper which makes it an issue, but the destruction of what it symbolizes. The Holy Koran, like the Holy Bible, isn't just a book, it's a book which carries a lot of symbolism and a lot of meaning for many people.

It's no different to an angry mob of Islamic fundamentalists gathered in a town square burning the American flag, which can be perceived to be an offensive, hostile act towards all Americans. Now imagine that the United States is an occupied terrority occupied by Islamic soldiers, let's say the Taliban as an example. Now let's say for example Americans everywhere are under the control of the Taliban, and a mullah decides to burn the Stars and Stripes in a mosque in downtown Kabul. Would that not cause offense among Americans and provoke a demonstration?

This in itself explains that special UK-US relationship. Unlike the United States, which is somewhat geographically isolated, having Canada to the north and Mexico to the south and a large ocean east and west we are a relatively small group of islands off the coast of Europe. Our history, which is much longer, is filled with conflicts, both internally and externally, wars with Ireland, with France, with Russia, with every other European nation apart from Poland and Greece, and this also explains why we have diplomacy - our part of the bargain - down to a fine art. Imagine what would have happened had Churchill not been there together with Stalin and Roosevelt after the end of the Second World War.

I'm not writing this to justify what the preacher did, nor to justify the reaction, because I see both as gross acts of human stupidity.

But there is a relationship between the two incidents and for me at least, that relationship is perfectly clear. Both understandable, and both stupid at the same time.


[sm=jaw.gif] An excellent piece of writing Stella, bravo !




tweakabelle -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:03:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


Burning books, murdering innocents.

Find all the similarities you want to, there is still one obvious huge difference.

One action caused paper to burn, the other caused people to die.



You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?




JstAnotherSub -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:04:58 AM)

I am sane enough to know that neither you or I are going to change our opinions regarding this.  And that is ok.




rulemylife -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:05:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, I'm arguing that free speech carries a certain degree of responsibility, and it's hard to imagine the attention seeking cretin not having any inkling that something like this might be a result, however stupid he is. Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy. It isn't like there aren't any precedents, after all.



So, in essence your argument is that we have to be careful of what we say and do so we don't make crazy people do crazy things.

Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.







Aneirin -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:12:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Tweakabelle I feel you are quite correct for in my mind there is no difference between Jones and the mad mullahs we so often denigrate. Politics enabled by belief, one unconfirmed influencing reality, something wrong there.

But is it a case of the location of the mad mouth defines whether the mad mouth's actions are accepted or not ?


So you don't see any difference between killing a person and burning a book? If I came into your house and said I was going to either kill you or burn one of the books on your shelf, you wouldn't see a difference in that either?




I see the difference between killing a person and burning a book is different in the normal sense, but what jones did was act on his own against more qualified advice and undoubtedly put lives at risk through his intentional actions of burning a book full of symbolism that is representative of a religious people his own country just happened to be at war with.

Now, I will say it again the religious priest jones did what he did whilst hiding behind America's security using his American right to freedom of speech and undoubtable action, but would he be so brave to have the courage of his convictions in the countries concerned.

If he is so concerned, then perhaps he should do what his country is doing, take the fight to the people as anything else is just dangerous big mouthed chicken shit. He is abusing his rights to freedom of speech and there endangering his own countrymen who are doing their best to do what their government has charged them to do in foreign lands.

I feel Terry Jones is an embarrassment to the USA, an embarrassment which could very well be alienating the USA regarding world oppinion.

Perhaps there are many in the USA that do not care what the rest of the world thinks, but they aren't in power, they do not dictate policy, for the USA like it or not has to care what the world thinks or else become isolated.




rulemylife -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:14:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


Burning books, murdering innocents.

Find all the similarities you want to, there is still one obvious huge difference.

One action caused paper to burn, the other caused people to die.



You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?


That is such a defeatist position.

Those lives were taken by radicals who believe they have the right to respond violently against any perceived slight.




Moonhead -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:18:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, I'm arguing that free speech carries a certain degree of responsibility, and it's hard to imagine the attention seeking cretin not having any inkling that something like this might be a result, however stupid he is. Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy. It isn't like there aren't any precedents, after all.



So, in essence your argument is that we have to be careful of what we say and do so we don't make crazy people do crazy things.

Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.


Not what I'm saying, no.
I'm just pointing out that Jones has yet to accept any responsibility for his goading idiots leading to several deaths. No statement, no anything.
He was making enough noise when he was grandstanding about his right to stir up trouble, but now he's fallen silent.




rulemylife -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:21:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


I see the difference between killing a person and burning a book is different in the normal sense, but what jones did was act on his own against more qualified advice and undoubtedly put lives at risk through his intentional actions of burning a book full of symbolism that is representative of a religious people his own country just happened to be at war with.



Let me ask you something.

If it was a Bible that was burned would we be seeing the same sort of violence?




tweakabelle -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:36:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?


That is such a defeatist position.

Those lives were taken by radicals who believe they have the right to respond violently against any perceived slight.


My "defeatist" position is that of Gen Petreaus, commander of US forces in Afghanistan. He might have another perspective on that adjective.

I see Jones' actions - cynically manipulating media for his own ends that have nothing to do with religion - and those of the mullahs as essentially two of a kind.

I doubt that the people who did the actual killing were 'radicals'. The Taliban and AL Quada have had no presence in the Mazar region historically. The killings were probably carried out by illiterate peasants living in 13th century conditions, with no experience or understanding of the world outside their immediate experience, whipped into a frenzy by their mullahs fire and brimstone sermons.

They were used cynically by the mullahs for their own political ends in ways that mirror Jones' cynical behaviour pretty precisely. Had Jones and the mullahs swapped places, the events would probably have been identical to those that actually transpired.




truckinslave -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:49:50 AM)

quote:

Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.


That is exactly what it means, and not just as far as burning Korans.

The further point is that any form of appeasement leads to escalating demands (which is why negotiating with terrorists is such a bad idea). Rewarding bad behavior begets bad bad bad behavior.

I have suggested on talk radio a somewhat different approach: hold nationwide Koran burnings every time there is an honor killing in this country, a beheading of an American anywhere, etc.

Of course, I think Americans should wear t-shirts that say: "Mohammed was a Pedophile", and "Islam: Hate Group" and "Jihad: towelhead for "Shoot me quick. And often". Then again, I don't like these people and would not mind seeing the US as an Islam-free zone.




rulemylife -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:51:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?


That is such a defeatist position.

Those lives were taken by radicals who believe they have the right to respond violently against any perceived slight.


My "defeatist" position is that of Gen Petreaus, commander of US forces in Afghanistan. He might have another perspective on that adjective.

I see Jones' actions - cynically manipulating media for his own ends that have nothing to do with religion - and those of the mullahs as essentially two of a kind.

I doubt that the people who did the actual killing were 'radicals'. The Taliban and AL Quada have had no presence in the Mazar region historically. The killings were probably carried out by illiterate peasants living in 13th century conditions, with no experience or understanding of the world outside their immediate experience, whipped into a frenzy by their mullahs fire and brimstone sermons.

They were used cynically by the mullahs for their own political ends in ways that mirror Jones' cynical behaviour pretty precisely. Had Jones and the mullahs swapped places, the events would probably have been identical to those that actually transpired.


And you would not define people whipped into a frenzy as radicals?

They were just having a bad hair day?




truckinslave -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 7:52:55 AM)

quote:

I doubt that the people who did the actual killing were 'radicals'.


I agree with your presumption and your use of quotation marks.

Those we call "radicals" could better be called simply "observant". Those we call moderate are actually apostate.




Kirata -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:05:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The killings were probably carried out by illiterate peasants living in 13th century conditions... Had Jones and the mullahs swapped places, the events would probably have been identical to those that actually transpired.

Would it be too much to ask for you to base your comments on reality intead of biassed fantasies about what (in your uninformed opinion) is "probably" the case? The demonstrations by "illiterate peasants" were without violence.

A morning protest in Jalalabad city was peaceful, with hundreds of people blocking a main highway for three hours, shouting for U.S. troops to leave and burning an effigy of President Barack Obama before dispersing, according to an Associated Press photographer at the scene.

A similar protest in eastern Parwan province blocked a main highway with burning tires for about an hour, with more than 1,000 people protesting against the desecration of the Quran, said provincial police chief Sher Ahmad Maladani. He said there was no violence.


The violence started Friday...

The Taliban said in a statement emailed to media outlets that... Afghans "cannot accept this un-Islamic act."

The Taliban statement said that those killed during the protests were unarmed ["]demonstrators["]... [but] Sher Jan Durani, a spokesman for the government of northern Balkh province, where the first riots occurred, said there were multiple armed men among the more than 20 arrested. Afghan authorities suspect insurgents infiltrated the mob.


Reference: [Associated Press]

K.






rulemylife -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:06:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.


That is exactly what it means, and not just as far as burning Korans.

The further point is that any form of appeasement leads to escalating demands (which is why negotiating with terrorists is such a bad idea). Rewarding bad behavior begets bad bad bad behavior.

I have suggested on talk radio a somewhat different approach: hold nationwide Koran burnings every time there is an honor killing in this country, a beheading of an American anywhere, etc.

Of course, I think Americans should wear t-shirts that say: "Mohammed was a Pedophile", and "Islam: Hate Group" and "Jihad: towelhead for "Shoot me quick. And often". Then again, I don't like these people and would not mind seeing the US as an Islam-free zone.


I would take that comment more seriously if you had been as adamant against Bush's Libya appeasement policy.




Lucylastic -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:08:42 AM)

Why am I only seeing the parallels , we have at least three posters in this one thread that would be members of the christian al-queda/taliban who would take up arms to protect their way of life from the eeeebil christians, I mean mooozlems.
self righteous anger...hate fear and ignorance on both sides, how wonderful
That jerk jones is not innocent.. taunting your "enemy", and knowing he wont be taking any  of the fallout earns him a special kind of hell.





slvemike4u -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:11:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.


That is exactly what it means, and not just as far as burning Korans.

The further point is that any form of appeasement leads to escalating demands (which is why negotiating with terrorists is such a bad idea). Rewarding bad behavior begets bad bad bad behavior.

I have suggested on talk radio a somewhat different approach: hold nationwide Koran burnings every time there is an honor killing in this country, a beheading of an American anywhere, etc.

Of course, I think Americans should wear t-shirts that say: "Mohammed was a Pedophile", and "Islam: Hate Group" and "Jihad: towelhead for "Shoot me quick. And often". Then again, I don't like these people and would not mind seeing the US as an Islam-free zone.
So this is basically your coming out of the closet,so to speak,where being a bigot is concerned?
Do not be surprised if this causes barely a ripple on these pages.....most intelligent posters had you pegged a long,long time ago.
Enjoy the lords day,and do remember to keep him and his works in your thoughts on this sabbath day




slvemike4u -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:13:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Why am I only seeing the parallels , we have at least three posters in this one thread that would be members of the christian al-queda/taliban who would take up arms to protect their way of life from the eeeebil christians, I mean mooozlems.
self righteous anger...hate fear and ignorance on both sides, how wonderful
That jerk jones is not innocent.. taunting your "enemy", and knowing he wont be taking any  of the fallout earns him a special kind of hell.


He was quoted in today's paper saying something to the effect...that though he regrets the loss of life....he would do it again.





Lucylastic -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:15:52 AM)

He probably will





Aneirin -> RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself (4/3/2011 8:15:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


I see the difference between killing a person and burning a book is different in the normal sense, but what jones did was act on his own against more qualified advice and undoubtedly put lives at risk through his intentional actions of burning a book full of symbolism that is representative of a religious people his own country just happened to be at war with.



Let me ask you something.

If it was a Bible that was burned would we be seeing the same sort of violence?



Who knows maybe, I hope nobody is stupid enough to put it to the test, for there are some serious Christian nut jobs too, and given this heightened situation caused by a so called Christian those nut jobs will be just itching to get involved, especially so if America fails to do anything about the embarrassment that is the pastor down at the Outreach Centre in Florida state.

I know you do not have laws for inciting racial or religious hatred, but do you have laws concerning the abuse of constitutional rights, for this pillock is using his constitutional right has made a very good case for limiting some of America's freedoms to save further loss of life and potential national embarrassment.

We have laws against inciting hatred in the UK and that purely because there are prejudiced people that live here and are all too keen to upset others if they had the freedom to do so. Now I am all for individual freedom, but if in that freedom people seek to upset others then it is clear for the greater good some freedoms need to be questioned as people will be people if they are allowed to be, and there for the majority naturally or institutionally prejudiced in some way.




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