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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 8:55:59 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		Are you open to constructive criticism?
 
It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself  you are saying in one breath that you speak in the manor you speak to people to achieve a desired effect, and in the other you say you dont care how you are being perceived.
 
Which is it?
 
Please tell me Raven muse is there a way that you can think of where I could have share with you that I found your remarks condescending in a way that you could have heard it and been receptive?
 
I am always open to constructive criticism, so if there is a way I can improve my communication skills, please share it with me.
 
 
~Tigress
 
 
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
I hear you and agree, on the basic premise of your point, but you have couched it in a condescending way.
 
Numerous studies have shown people are less likely to hear things when they feel they are being talked down to.


And how likely am I to 'hear' that?
If you have been here a while then you should have noticed I don't do such things by mistake, but by choose and mostly get the effect I was aiming for.... oh and that I couldn't care less how others take it!



_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:04:09 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		I see you are hard of learning.

I aimed for an effect, from the responce it worked. End of story... you seem to have some PC issues with it, tough, I don't give a monkeys if I offended your sensibilitys, it wasn't aimed at you and you can stick your PC 'critisism' where the sun don't shine dear because I ain't interested.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:16:16 AM   
moon69


Posts: 59
Joined: 4/16/2006
Status: offline 		How funny------------and sad......
So many things come to mind.....but why waste it on deaf ears....
Good Luck to you in life Raven..... you need it....

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:17:47 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear becca333, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
There is a time and place to communicate.  To maintain a debate during the punishment, perhaps is the issue--as, adjudication has been determined, the trial phase is over and the sentence/punishment phase is to be administered.  To voice from the position of the accused on how best the judge should punish, would not sit well with any judge--
even in civilian court.
 
Uttering these words of advice, comments just tampers with the the discipline process and provokes emotions of the negative.  Words no matter how they are seen by the one about to be disciplined, is a challenge and perhaps an implied/indirect threat to the purpose of the punishment/discipline and or the authority and justification of that discipline/punishment.  If in the same situation, I would see it as a form of manipulation, regardless of the spirit of intent.
 
But, the post you have made--it seemingly appears to be a "role play" scene in one manner and correction in another.  So, that does not bear the same weight as actual correction as to do behavior modification and or attitude adjustment, in a role play scene; the intent and purpose for the needed correction/punishment/discipline/adjudication has no distinction from actual and role play.
 
Perhaps it should be considered, that actual correction be specificly separated from role play.  Role play one can "goof" around and be what other character you both enjoy.  However, if it is correction--I hope that it will be handled in a sincere and taken as it's intended effect.
 
As for me, I do not "play" with correction/discipline.  I want a slave to avoid at all times, the need for me to drasticly punish them. But, I will make absolutely sure, that a slave of mine knows, what behavior has provoked the discipline/punishment, there is no misunderstanding of what is to take place, the means of punishment and what to expect.
Once the slave has taken their punishment, it is time to move on.  If my slave has a need to talk about it.  They must wait one day, as to allow anger and all the other emotions to vent, time to think on it and express themselves.  Then, I will give my total attention to that slave.
If I wanted to play at punishment; I'd get a masochist.
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs
 
 

(in reply to becca333)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:19:21 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		I make my own luck friend, I just react badly to people trying to get PC on my ass.
Though I stand by every word of it, some folks simply don't get the fact that it is as offensive to me as the responce they get "In kind"


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to moon69)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:37:01 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		I am sorry I have read the whole post again to see if I missed something, You claim that you saying "I am DOM, I GIVE orders and dont TAKE them dear"
had a cleverly calculated desired effect, yet I do not see where she responded to you after your remarks, so what effect are you talking about?



_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:41:09 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Then read more closely dear. You seem to have a problem, deal with it!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:43:40 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps the desired effect was to have several people thinking "Huh, what a condescending dork" ??  If so I'd say he hit that nail squarely on the head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
I am sorry I have read the whole post again to see if I missed something, You claim that you saying "I am DOM, I GIVE orders and dont TAKE them dear"
had a cleverly calculated desired effect, yet I do not see where she responded to you after your remarks, so what effect are you talking about?

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 9:44:48 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Well, most of the 'advice' is "Not so hard!"  "Not there!"  "Not all in one place!"  and so on.  He doesn't seem to take that well.

Oddly, if I'm saying "More!"  and "Harder!"  he doesn't seem to mind.


This doesn't sound like 'punishment' to me.. sounds like play.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to becca333)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 10:00:05 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		"When one must stoop to condescension and insult to win his argument he can count his self respect among the things he has already lost" ~Andre Glide

So many times on this board I have inaccurately jumped to conclusions or vented inappropriately, it is human, but I think the test of ones character is how they deal with it when it happens, if you go back and read my posts, you will see that I always apologize and strive for understanding. It is never easy, but it is the right thing to do.
 
 


quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Then read more closely dear. You seem to have a problem, deal with it!


_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 10:37:53 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		You already highjacked the thread to spank Raven. He didn't appreciate. Leave it now and move on already.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to crouchingtigress)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 10:44:36 AM   
Submotive


Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

My Dom often mentions, in passing, that I complain during punishment sessions. I don't utter a work of complaint, truly, I just make the occasional comment or give helpful advice.  Besides, I feel that it's important to give feedback so that he knows I appreciate what he's doing.

Helpful advice????? YOU feel it's important to give feedback so He knows ................ what?????????
my recommendation - stop talking and just thank Him afterward. i have the same mindset that you describe and am learning it is not pleasing to my Master. If He wants my advice/opionion or anything else He asks for it. Otherwise i am to obey. During punishment is definitely not a time to offer advice. LOL

quote:

  
But what's the general feeling on this?  Should a good sub suffer bravely in noble silence?  Or is it a good idea to show that he's getting through by sharing thoughts and feelings during the session?

Sharing thoughts and feelings during punishment?????? Perhaps you're too much in your head and not enough in your submission. i don't know about you, but when i'm being punished i want Master to see how sorry i am to have disappointed Him and how thankful i am that He cares enough to correct me. Punishment is not a game. i don't analyze it and i don't toy with it. i am deeply saddened when i require punishment.

quote:

And - isn't it pretty boring if the sub makes no sound?

After your next punishment session, ask Your Dom if He was bored?
It's not your job to read your Dom's mind or to train Him in how to train or punish you.

_____________________________

Owned by Scotch Master

i would rather continue alone than be permitted to show only parts of myself to my Beloved.

If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

(in reply to becca333)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 10:57:18 AM   
cariad


Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		when girl got punished by her former Master, He required her to say: "1, Thank You Master, please may girl have another?" and so on.

girl never dared to say that wasn't hard enough or no not there, or anything else....although the first time she did make the mistake of saying  "1 bee sting Master, please may girl have another?"

oh boy after that girl learned to keep her mouth shut and afterwards thanked Him for punishing her for whatever the infraction was and promising never to do it again.

girl learned what buttons would be ok to push and which ones to totally avoid, but it took punishment, training and guidance to do so.

punishment is not for a slaves/subs enjoyment, it is there to teach them which behaviors are acceptable and which are not, to guide them, to help them grow as a slave/sub/person. (just girl's opinion)


_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

(in reply to Submotive)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 11:00:49 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		No he did not...oh well...that was going to be my final thought on the subject, however now I need to reply to your spanking which I do deserve...
 
My apologies to the OP for the hijack....
 
~Tigress

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

You already highjacked the thread to spank Raven. He didn't appreciate. Leave it now and move on already.

Celeste


_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 11:01:59 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I have to admit that the whole "punishment" thing just eludes me completely. A wave of thoughts instantly come to mind:
 
  • Nobody is perfect, or ever will be.
  • If your slate is clean, you can throw stones.
  • Stop removing the splinter in my eye while you have a log in your own.
  • You will never have higher standards for me, then I have for myself.

 
That said, certainly the time of discipline is probably not the best time to discuss what form it will take ... but rest assured it will be discussed, and if there is a problem, it's going to be a deal breaker.
 
Some may consider that topping from the bottom ... others, myself included, would argue that you should never do or tolerate something that you really don't want to do or tolerate, because someone else requires that of you. Eventually, you will make that person pay for their folly.

(in reply to becca333)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 11:13:10 AM   
ArchangelMichael


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/21/2004
From: New Orleans, LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Well, most of the 'advice' is "Not so hard!"  "Not there!"  "Not all in one place!"  and so on.  He doesn't seem to take that well.

Oddly, if I'm saying "More!"  and "Harder!"  he doesn't seem to mind.


Are you actually being "punished?" That is, does this occur when he is enforcing his discipline by punishing you because you did something wrong or disobeyed his orders? Or is this "punishment" just play punishment and you're using the term to describe a normal scene?

There's a difference in context and how both the submissive and Dominant should act during punishment as opposed to a normal scene. During a scene, I always welcome feedback; however what you're describing sounds a lot like topping from the bottom. On the other hand, I can see what you're saying as honest feedback, especially if you haven't been playing with the person too long. IMO, if you've played with each other enough and know each other well enough, you shouldn't even need to be giving him that type of advice because he should know your body well enough by now.

If you are actually being punished, then you have to accept that what he's doing to you is something he knows you won't like. Giving him "advice" like this during a punishment session seems to undermine the point of punishment. If he really hurts you and you think it has the potential to harm you (i.e. hitting you too hard in the kidneys), THEN speak up. But things like hitting you too many times in the same place, hitting you in places you don't like, hitting you too hard, etc. are perfectly fine for a punishment because he knows those are things that you don't like. If they don't have the potential to harm you, there's nothing wrong with it. If he wants you to remain silent during punishment, then do so. Save the "advice" for a normal scene where feedback would be encouraged.

As always, talk with your Dom regarding this matter and get a clear idea of what he expects from you both during normal scenes and during punishment. Also, don't forget to let him know what you expect from him. It's a two-way street. You can always save the feedback until after the scene/punishment is over if he wants you to be quiet. I always ask a submissive for feedback after a scene because I know that many submissives don't want to say anything during the scene. I know that when I bottom, I don't generally speak up unless there's a serious problem (you've wrapped too many times, you keep hitting that bad spot so please be careful, etc.). If the Domme I'm playing with really wants to hit me in one spot a bunch of times, I accept that's what she wants. If it becomes unbearable, I have the option to use a safeword (usually yellow). I can always give feedback afer a scene if I need to.

(in reply to becca333)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 11:30:05 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear caitlyn, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I agree, that nobody is perfect.  This is one reason I have on purpose left flaws in anything I write, publish.  I am human--all are human.  There are times to forgive. Times to work harder to create the words that it requires to deter bad behavior.
 
It is communications and coming to an agreed standard to work by. 
 
However, when tolerances are breeched and the behavior is that, which is knowingly to the contrary of understood and agreed behavior, as all remedies are exhausted; then discipline/punishment is required.
 
But, as with anything--some treat it as a game or scene, some do both in play and serious training corrections and some, perhaps like me--it is the last resort and before total collar removal and dismissal.
 
Negotiations are the times when limits, tolerances and issues are to be discussed--not after the fact or, as things pop up.  I do dislike the make up the rules as things happen or punish a slave for behavior done before such rules were placed, known and or acknowledged, sort of D/s interactions.
 
I am thankful, that the slaves I have had in the past, have never caused severe discipline.  More times than I can remember, the slaves beat themselves up more than I would ever do.  They do suffer in silence, as they really from heart, soul and spirit want to please.  A look of disappointment can shatter such sweet and dear souls.  Perhaps dominants do not realize how a look or expressions of disappointment, is as if to throw an axe into their heart, shattering into pieces that can never be mended and restored as new.
 
Perhaps also, slaves do not realize how painful for a dominant as I, to discipline a slave that I see as a gentle kitten, a lamb or some other tender being.  Some do enjoy such, for this is more for those who identify as Torturer and or Executioner, rather than a loving Master.
But, each slave must realize that for every action there are effects.
So also, for every willing choice to be disobedient, the consequences are known--so should the expectation be present as well.
 
Without discipline, obedience, limits and or boundaries--the slave is not free to operate within them safely.  I never wish to see a slave go past the safe margins.  No different than training a dog, as to stay within the safety of the yard.  It is much more delightful a dog can play off the leash or chain in peaceful and delightful safety, than to be chained and fenced in with limited freedom.
 
In summary, it is the "spirit of intent" that is most important when it comes to the M/s and or D/s relationship in all levels and in all things.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 11:35:20 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

I am thankful, that the slaves I have had in the past, have never caused severe discipline.  More times than I can remember, the slaves beat themselves up more than I would ever do.  They do suffer in silence, as they really from heart, soul and spirit want to please.  A look of disappointment can shatter such sweet and dear souls.  Perhaps dominants do not realize how a look or expressions of disappointment, is as if to throw an axe into their heart, shattering into pieces that can never be mended and restored as new.


That is exactly the reason I do occassionaly impose a physical punishment (With the right girl) the 'punishment' is actualy my disapointment.... however SOME girls will beat themselves up too much if that is not dealt with by their master. A physical punishment gives them some closure on the event and stops them fretting on it.

Some girls I have had haven't needed it, but some do.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 11:45:50 AM   
mixielicous


Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
however SOME girls will beat themselves up too much if that is not dealt with by their master. A physical punishment gives them some closure on the event and stops them fretting on it.




this is the problem i seem to have often. it is something that maybe did not particularly upset him, but i am completely devistated by my own action. the fault destroys me and i do not feel forgiven w/o contact sometimes.

its hard to explain.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:00:39 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
this is the problem i seem to have often. it is something that maybe did not particularly upset him, but i am completely devistated by my own action. the fault destroys me and i do not feel forgiven w/o contact sometimes.

its hard to explain.


You are not alone in that though petal, I've met a number of lovely young ladys who reacted the same way. Tearing themselves apart for their failour (Even where I didn't view it particularly badly) and unable to let it go without getting a physical closure on it.

You are right, I couldn't compleatly explain it, however I have come to recognise it and deal with it.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 60
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