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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:11:44 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
You are right, I couldn't compleatly explain it, however I have come to recognise it and deal with it.

Oh it's called perfectionism: equal parts narcissism, insecurity and control freak issues.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:16:17 PM

caitlyn

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Thank you so much for your wonderful response LadyHugs.

I can find only one part where I must respectfully agree to not agree ... and in truth, this may be as a result of my own experiences and/or lack of experience, rather than anyone being right or wrong.

quote:

Negotiations are the times when limits, tolerances and issues are to be discussed--not after the fact or, as things pop up. I do dislike the make up the rules as things happen or punish a slave for behavior done before such rules were placed, known and or acknowledged, sort of D/s interactions.

I find this highly impractical. It places the decision making process of how the relationship will work, in front of the period where people really get to know each other.

The inevitable reality is that things will pop up after the fact ... things that were not considered in advance. The simple fact is that people and motivations change, even to the extent that motivations can drastically change as people gain stronger positive feeling towards each other.

You also have people that are highly skilled at hiding their true nature. To insist that all decisions be made in advance, dooms the most innocent of lambs, to slaughter at the hands of the most dastardly of lions.

On the day after the relationship is agreed to, there will no longer be any chance of equity between the two parties. Under the system you suggest above, any issue that comes up after the fact, will ever be ameliorated in favor of the submissive party, even when there is justification for exactly that, unless the dominant party agrees by random chance.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 5/8/2006 12:43:16 PM >

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:26:18 PM

yourMissTress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

My Dom often mentions, in passing, that I complain during punishment sessions. I don't utter a work of complaint, truly, I just make the occasional comment or give helpful advice. Besides, I feel that it's important to give feedback so that he knows I appreciate what he's doing.

But what's the general feeling on this? Should a good sub suffer bravely in noble silence? Or is it a good idea to show that he's getting through by sharing thoughts and feelings during the session?

And - isn't it pretty boring if the sub makes no sound?

quote:

Well, most of the 'advice' is "Not so hard!" "Not there!" "Not all in one place!" and so on. He doesn't seem to take that well.

Oddly, if I'm saying "More!" and "Harder!" he doesn't seem to mind.

I can't find a single bit of what you call "advice" that doesn't sound like you are telling your Dom how to be your Dom. What part of "not so hard", "not there" or "not all in one place" aren't complaints? And how is this "feedback"? Is he asking you if it's too hard or in the right place? And...who cares what anyone else thinks about it? If your Dom says not to do it, then don't do it. Is your Dom so submissive that you can come to a public forum, gather opinions of others and take them back to him saying "all these people think that you should do it this way" and he will obey?

If My girl were to behave in the manner that you are, she would find herself gagged in quick fashion, and if she continued to try to manipulate Me, she would find herself looking for a new Domme.

Ravenmuse: I found nothing offensive or condescending in what you said, but I wasn't looking to be offended either.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:30:52 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

Under the system you suggest above, no issue that comes up after the fact, will never be ameliorated in favor of the submissive party, even when there is justification for exactly that, unless the dominant party agrees by random chance.

Ok, the double negative is throwing me a bit so I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say. Perception is an odd thing. What I garnered from Lady Hugs, and is in fact my own belief as well, was that punishment would 'not' ensue for something which had not been brought forth prior to the issue becoming an actuality. No two people can possibly cover every contingency of every facet of life. I think what Lady Hugs is saying is that one can try for that, but should not institute punishment when the two parties have not reached an agreement in which the dominant party feels the submissive party has not behaved as expected because such was not previously discussed. I would think such would be a rare thing if communication is well in place and a 'thinking' submissive should know their dominant well enough that parameters can be understood in most circumstances. We are all adults and if adults behave as such, any matter which has not been specifically brought up during communication should be minor at best and easily corrected to the satisfaction of the dominant and without undue distress on the submissive party.

Celeste

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:45:23 PM

caitlyn

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I corrected it ... and was thinking, reading, typing, and on the cell ... all at once.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 12:46:21 PM

darq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Well, most of the 'advice' is "Not so hard!" "Not there!" "Not all in one place!" and so on. He doesn't seem to take that well.

Oddly, if I'm saying "More!" and "Harder!" he doesn't seem to mind.

OK, if its a punishment, ie not supposed to feel good to you, then you don't really get to say things like "Not so hard!" "Not there!" "Not all in one place!" and so on. And again, if its a punishment, ie not supposed to feel good to you, then you saying things like "More!" and "Harder!" is also rather pointless. Punishments are not supposed to feel good ... You don't get to sit there and direct him on how to make it feel better for you. If he's punishing you, its because you've in some way displeased or disapointed him and he feels the need to correct your behavior.

Now, if he's just spanking you because he enjoys giving spankings and you enjoy recieving them ... Well, communication is always a good thing. Of course, knowing what you're talking about is a good thing too.

Edited because I forgot a word.

< Message edited by darq -- 5/8/2006 12:47:24 PM >

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 3:10:49 PM

mixielicous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Oh it's called perfectionism: equal parts narcissism, insecurity and control freak issues.

hmmm... that cannot possibly be a good thing for a slave.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 4:26:07 PM

DaimonDog

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quote Caitlin:
You also have people that are highly skilled at hiding their true nature. To insist that all decisions be made in advance, dooms the most innocent of lambs, to slaughter at the hands of the most dastardly of lions.

On the day after the relationship is agreed to, there will no longer be any chance of equity between the two parties. Under the system you suggest above, any issue that comes up after the fact, will ever be ameliorated in favor of the submissive party, even when there is justification for exactly that, unless the dominant party : unquote

Exactly.

To the OP: You could try saying "please don't" instead of ordering him around- like a , uh, servant.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 4:32:25 PM

DaimonDog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Oh it's called perfectionism: equal parts narcissism, insecurity and control freak issues.

Interesting.
How do you deal with a submissive who is a perfectionist? Is that a bad thing?

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 5:27:14 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaimonDog

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Oh it's called perfectionism: equal parts narcissism, insecurity and control freak issues.

Interesting.
How do you deal with a submissive who is a perfectionist? Is that a bad thing?

If it's used productively, it can be an excellent attribute. Trust me, plenty of subs and slaves are perfectionists.

As long as you/they do not allow their perfectionism (which is a product of their narcisissm/insecurity/control freak needs) to get the better of them, to lose perspective, and to control them...it can be great.

The drive, the focus on the perceptions of others, the focus, and other elements also inherent to perfectionism are great things for a servant to have. As long as you mediate and control the not-so-great parts of it, it can be wonderful.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 7:02:54 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

I know it's an issue we need to work on, but I just can't understand why he wants it that way, so I'm trying to find out what Doms in general think about it.

Besides, it's interesting to try and imagine what things are like from the opposite point of view. Dom-ness is an alien world to me.

why do you want to understand?

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 7:16:48 PM

MistressOfGa

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Becca,
My pup screams bloody murder when I am punishing him. I love every whimper, whine and cry he lets loose <s>

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 7:16:50 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

My Dom often mentions, in passing, that I complain during punishment sessions. I don't utter a work of complaint, truly, I just make the occasional comment or give helpful advice. Besides, I feel that it's important to give feedback so that he knows I appreciate what he's doing.

But what's the general feeling on this? Should a good sub suffer bravely in noble silence? Or is it a good idea to show that he's getting through by sharing thoughts and feelings during the session?

And - isn't it pretty boring if the sub makes no sound?

quote:

Well, most of the 'advice' is "Not so hard!" "Not there!" "Not all in one place!" and so on. He doesn't seem to take that well.

Oddly, if I'm saying "More!" and "Harder!" he doesn't seem to mind.

I can't find a single bit of what you call "advice" that doesn't sound like you are telling your Dom how to be your Dom. What part of "not so hard", "not there" or "not all in one place" aren't complaints? And how is this "feedback"? Is he asking you if it's too hard or in the right place? And...who cares what anyone else thinks about it? If your Dom says not to do it, then don't do it. Is your Dom so submissive that you can come to a public forum, gather opinions of others and take them back to him saying "all these people think that you should do it this way" and he will obey?

If My girl were to behave in the manner that you are, she would find herself gagged in quick fashion, and if she continued to try to manipulate Me, she would find herself looking for a new Domme.

Ravenmuse: I found nothing offensive or condescending in what you said, but I wasn't looking to be offended either.

I fully agree with MissTress on this one..and I am utterly puzzled by you instructing said Dom in how to punish you!..You do a wrong ...you get punished...you talk it out later and then go on...I mean I find it totally ludicrous that you instruct him on "How "to punish you!!....finding this difficult to wrap my mind around..be well...Tempting

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/8/2006 7:58:21 PM

MistressOfGa

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quote:

I still don't get why he wants silence, though. From the point of view of good workmanship, wouldn't you want the satisfaction of hearing that your efforts are having an effect?

Becca,
It is not for you to question how your Dom wants you to act. The day you gave yourself to him is the day that you gave him the authority to do as he pleases. If he wants silence from you, then that is what you must give to him. If he wants you to scream bloody murder, then that is what you should do. Why is it so important for you to know what other Doms like or dislike? Trust your Dom. His is the only opinion that should matter to you.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/9/2006 3:41:50 AM

becca333

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

I know it's an issue we need to work on, but I just can't understand why he wants it that way, so I'm trying to find out what Doms in general think about it.

Besides, it's interesting to try and imagine what things are like from the opposite point of view. Dom-ness is an alien world to me.

why do you want to understand?

Doesn't everyone wonder what it's like from the other side? Or wonder what their partner is feeling?

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/9/2006 3:55:14 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

I understand and agree with what I'm hearing here - I really do want to be a good sub, and I do often sink into that lovely state of freedom when I give up all control to him. But even so, it's sometimes so hard not to let my bossier side out.

Perhaps the two of you are not a good match.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/9/2006 3:55:21 AM

becca333

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There's been a few comments that it's not punishment.

Yes, sometimes this is partly play, but it's serious too. A normal session is around two hours, usually involving a variety of paddles (wooden and leather), tawse, crop, a few other implements, butt plugs and a fairly intense caning to finish off. I've been paddled till I bled.

And, using your comments and my own reactions to explore this, I think that my earlier idea has merit - possibly I'm trying to find emotional contact with him when I need it.

As for the 'more' and 'harder' comments - when I hit subspace I have this wild streak that wants to push my limits. When I'm floating, the world vanishes and pain flips into some kind of pleasure/pain sensation that's on a whole other spectrum. At this point I'm functioning on a purely physical level.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/9/2006 4:16:57 AM

TigerLily23

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Becca-
If it is truly in your heart to serve your Master, then allow yourself to serve him in the manner in which he wishes to served...it is not easy...and don't let anyone tell you that it is...me, myself, love the reassurance, but while engaged in a session, my objective is to serve his needs in what ever capacity I can (even if it meant remaining silent)...his needs and pleasures are served (sometimes repeatedly) before I even think about me...and on occassion, my needs are not met, but that is up to my Master, and how he wants to be served....and I obey.

But we do talk...communicate...during or immediately after 'after care'...he wants to know what I am thinking/feeling so that he may care for me appropriately...

I am pretty new to the scene, but when I get the opportunity to ask the more experienced in the lifestyle, communication is always the best advice they offer....

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/9/2006 5:01:08 AM

becca333

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigerLily23

But we do talk...communicate...during or immediately after 'after care'...he wants to know what I am thinking/feeling so that he may care for me appropriately...

You're right - those moments afterwards are so wonderfully intimate.

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RE: Suffering in silence - 5/9/2006 7:17:03 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

There's been a few comments that it's not punishment.

Yes, sometimes this is partly play, but it's serious too. A normal session is around two hours, usually involving a variety of paddles (wooden and leather), tawse, crop, a few other implements, butt plugs and a fairly intense caning to finish off. I've been paddled till I bled.

It may be a case of terminology - to many of us, "punishment" is taken literally - as discipline. You seem to be talking about serving, which is different. Some call that "play" (I don't particularly call it that). When those of us are disciplined for an infraction, we typically suffer the consequences without daring to add input. I believe that's where we were coming from in our answers.

Even still, when Master is using me for his pleasure, he would not be too pleased if I were telling him "not there" and the like. He will inflict pain if he wants to. He will use what body parts he wants to, and how he wants to. There are times when, similar to what you said, while in space I will growl and cry out and beg or even dare him to dole out more. That's just a reaction, yet he will still do as he wishes. We recognize my response for what it is. I will not and can not tell him how to use me. Maybe your dom thinks you are trying to do that.

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