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tazzygirl -> RE: Extremist like Palen jeopardizes the BDSM community and sites like this. (4/8/2011 2:15:15 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:
tazzygirl
“I think the writer makes a compelling argument against the religious ties surrounding 9/11”
This is the claim by you that I disputed. I argued that religion was one factor in the mix of causes for 9/11. After a post or two back and forwards you agreed as per the below quote (post # 146):
quote:
tazzygirl
You are correct. I meant to write only religious ties.
So my understanding is that you specifically agreed that religion was one of the factors that caused 9/11. That's why I was surprised to see your latest position, which is a back track from your agreement.
I have no desire to have the whole discussion again. It's all there in black and white at the link I supplied in my previous post and confirmed in the excerpts I have quoted above.
It's very clear that you acknowledged the correctness of my position which is unchanged.
And in that you assumed, and you assumed incorrectly. I did not agree with your position. I agreed that I should have added the word "only" which is pretty much the assertion GS and others were going after.
quote:
Bin Laden's war, or the wars of those fighting America in Afghanistan, northern Pakistan or Iraq, cannot be explained by searching the Quran. Those wars can only be analyzed and explained through the lens of political, historic and geographic factors. As political scientist Robert Pape explained in Dying to Win: The Logic of Suicide Terror, military occupation rather than ideology is the primary cause of suicide terrorism, whether it is employed by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka (the perpetrator of the largest number of suicide attacks), secular Palestinian groups in the West Bank or al-Qaeda in Iraq, Afghanistan or Western states. Pape bases his conclusion on empirical evidence he compiles on every single suicide attack or campaign around the world from 1980 to 2003 (Pape, Robert. Interview with The American Conservative. "The Logic of Suicide Terror." 18 July 2005. http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/jul/18/00017/).
These findings are consistent with Bin Laden's own articulations, who has repeatedly stated in online statements, video broadcasts and media interviews with journalists from all religious backgrounds that his war against the West is driven by what he perceives as the West's aggression, violence and injustice against Muslim lands - Chechnya, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc. The use of religious rhetoric by Bin Laden and others who share his ideology does not change the fact that their underlying motivation is political, not religious.
When pressed by al-Jazeera journalist Taysir al-Alluni on how he could justify the attacks of 9/11 despite Prophet Muhammad's prohibitions against killing civilians, Bin Laden ceased to invoke religious evidence and instead, invoked a politics of reciprocity based on his own logic and ideology. He stated, "It wasn't a children's school! Neither was it a residence...We treat others like they treat us. Those who kill our women and our innocent, we will kill their women and innocent, until they stop doing so" (Lawrence, Bruce. Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama bin Laden. Trans. James Howarth. London: Verso, 2005, 119).
The Islamic cultural and community center envisioned by Imam Faisal Abdul-Rauf and the organizers in NY will be one step towards reclaiming Islam's true spirit, fostering reconciliation and bridging gaps that desperately need to be mended.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/hadia_mubarak/2010/07/no_religious_basis_for_911.html
Now, this is what I posted. To which, you replied in part...
quote:
Obviously this argument acknowledges OBL’s own assertion of religion as a motivation for his behaviour. It disagrees with OBL's assertions for theological reasons, preferring to find a “primarily” political “underlying motivation”. "Primarily" not totally. One finds no elimination of religion being “in the mix”. It even acknowledges OBL’s claim that he acts in defence of “Muslim lands”, specifically naming Chechyna, Palestine and Iraq ie areas sharing a common religion and suffering foreign occupation. Clearly religion is “in the mix” here.
What is obvious to you isnt obvious to me, or the writer of the piece, who happens to be a muslim woman. As I have often stated, you can call any cause you wish "religious". By calling it such doesnt make it so. The motivation behind such causes speak more than the claims. OBL's backtracking (in the bolded part above) is evidence enough of his true motivation.
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