RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa)

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

NorthernGent -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 11:35:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent we may be European to an extent, but the fact that we're an island has had a massive influence on the way we think. Were we joined to the continent we would think like them; we have not lived for centuries with the threat of armies marching over our borders. interestingly someone else said this to me recently and explained to me how she meant it, following which I could agree with her (as simply the way how she expressed it I felt to be very realistic to my experience) In regards to the rest, thats so true, though you might mean it in a different context as I do (not sure but could be the case). The reasons we visited the mosque in 2002 was due to the attack in america just before then, the fact that we were doing our qualification to work with kids in children's homes and it was considered to be important to learn more about their belief due to the fact that after all we were part of their upbringing and also some of us worked with children from muslim parents and on top of it the american army was just around the corner. During our visit in the mosque we were also able to have a good debate with the Imam to have our questions we had, answered. It was not compulsory to take part on that visit and I do remember (though I don't remember why) that our african-american class mate did not feel comfortable to take part. But it was interesting and I am glad that the school did arrange for us that visit. Also as a kid it felt very odd indeed when aged 12/13 I passed the canadian area we had at that time in my town (they sadly left as the canadian army was not considered as being needed anymore once the german wall came down) and at that time they heavily guarded their buildings... edited to add: not to mention the fact that whilst it is quite a long time ago now, it is not that long ago actually on the other side, that people were being shot in Germany when they tried to leave east Germany Phoenix, you may be suprised to hear that I studied German history at university, well I say history, I mean German history 1870-1945. Fascinating country. The 'land in the middle' will mean something to you - a huge concern for the Germans, which ultimately led to WW1. Some great thinkers: in the same way John Locke could be only an Englishman, Martin Heidegger could only be a German. And that comment has nothing to do with his links to the Nazis, more a case of a radical, brilliant, German, conservative mind. Once you've read Heidegger it doesn't matter whether you're liberal or conservative - you will see the world in a totally different light.

thishereboi -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 11:37:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Not the same thing at all. There is a difference between public attire and public behavior, for the discerning observer. I'm not crazy about having to witness two people smooching grotesquely in public, no matter the genders. And at the same time, I don't feel that any of them were trying to shove their homosexuality or heterosexuality down my throat. I don't think you are accusing me of such presumption, but I hear you also on some people's fear of homo-phenomena in general. Every time (almost) I go to the grocery store I go down an isle with some gay/lesbian couple there. They are just shopping, not trying to tell all the world about their different preference. The hardware store I visit most often is staffed largely by lesbians. They are more interested in selling me a can of paint or a box of outdoor screws (and I thank them for their expertise) than they are in trying to sell me their personal choice for a life mate. Or their god. Do they even have a god? I'm sure that some do and some don't, but they keep me ignorant to that issue in any case. Sorry, still don't see the difference. You see a women standing there in a head covering and consider that shoving something in your face. A homophobe sees a gay couple standing there holding hands and considers that shoving something in his face. In both cases, the person in question is just standing there, yet you see one as a hostile action and the other as perfectly normal. Why?

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 11:46:32 AM)
quote: Edwynn, do you feel nuns are throwing their religion in your face by wearing their habits? Hlen, funny you mention that. The short answer is, "yes they were." Notice the past tense there. And notice also that I go to a grocery store where the Jewish faith is thrown into my face all the time. I had then and have now no major issue with it. But all this discussion is starting to make me feel different about it now. I grew up in that environment, truth be known. My first six years of school involved 4 habit wearers and 2 lay teachers. But have not seen either a Nun's habit or Priest's clerical collar for at least 15 years now, even though every place I shop is close to two different Catholic churches. I don't know how this came about, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't due to any local law. I'm also aware that in some other part of this country or another part of the world I might see it everyday. The main grocery store I go to is staffed largely by men wearing yarmulkes. I am happy for their devotion, even if it so obviously excludes women from taking any of these jobs. The women of this same group look happy while shopping at the same store, and that tells me most of what I might be concerned with. If everybody looks happy and no one looks abused, I really should have no judgment on the matter, either way. I'm used to all this, and it never bothered me in the first place. But now since all this discussion came up, I find myself imaginatively having the most extreme expression of everybodies' faith in the grocery store all at once, all wearing their "my god is the one true god" attire. Please, cut me some slack, one at a time I'm OK with, but I have no use for any of their gods in the first place, howevermuch any of them insist on imposing it upon me and every one else. I appreciate your and others patience in all this, but honestly, I eventually get tired of having to explain myself in finding issue with others' lack of respect for a country that accepted them in the first place, and a country where they chose to go.

Phoenixpower -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 12:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent we may be European to an extent, but the fact that we're an island has had a massive influence on the way we think. Were we joined to the continent we would think like them; we have not lived for centuries with the threat of armies marching over our borders. interestingly someone else said this to me recently and explained to me how she meant it, following which I could agree with her (as simply the way how she expressed it I felt to be very realistic to my experience) In regards to the rest, thats so true, though you might mean it in a different context as I do (not sure but could be the case). The reasons we visited the mosque in 2002 was due to the attack in america just before then, the fact that we were doing our qualification to work with kids in children's homes and it was considered to be important to learn more about their belief due to the fact that after all we were part of their upbringing and also some of us worked with children from muslim parents and on top of it the american army was just around the corner. During our visit in the mosque we were also able to have a good debate with the Imam to have our questions we had, answered. It was not compulsory to take part on that visit and I do remember (though I don't remember why) that our african-american class mate did not feel comfortable to take part. But it was interesting and I am glad that the school did arrange for us that visit. Also as a kid it felt very odd indeed when aged 12/13 I passed the canadian area we had at that time in my town (they sadly left as the canadian army was not considered as being needed anymore once the german wall came down) and at that time they heavily guarded their buildings... edited to add: not to mention the fact that whilst it is quite a long time ago now, it is not that long ago actually on the other side, that people were being shot in Germany when they tried to leave east Germany Phoenix, you may be suprised to hear that I studied German history at university, well I say history, I mean German history 1870-1945. I am indeed [8\|] quote: The 'land in the middle' will mean something to you - a huge concern for the Germans, which ultimately led to WW1. Some great thinkers: in the same way John Locke could be only an Englishman, Martin Heidegger could only be a German. And that comment has nothing to do with his links to the Nazis, more a case of a radical, brilliant, German, conservative mind. Once you've read Heidegger it doesn't matter whether you're liberal or conservative - you will see the world in a totally different light. I wish I would be able to claim that it would mean something to me...as nope, it does not [&:] gosh, there must be something in the air today...frazzle agreed, NorthernGent impresses me today for a change... [&:][&:][&:]

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 12:09:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Not the same thing at all. There is a difference between public attire and public behavior, for the discerning observer. I'm not crazy about having to witness two people smooching grotesquely in public, no matter the genders. And at the same time, I don't feel that any of them were trying to shove their homosexuality or heterosexuality down my throat. I don't think you are accusing me of such presumption, but I hear you also on some people's fear of homo-phenomena in general. Every time (almost) I go to the grocery store I go down an isle with some gay/lesbian couple there. They are just shopping, not trying to tell all the world about their different preference. The hardware store I visit most often is staffed largely by lesbians. They are more interested in selling me a can of paint or a box of outdoor screws (and I thank them for their expertise) than they are in trying to sell me their personal choice for a life mate. Or their god. Do they even have a god? I'm sure that some do and some don't, but they keep me ignorant to that issue in any case. Sorry, still don't see the difference. You see a women standing there in a head covering and consider that shoving something in your face. A homophobe sees a gay couple standing there holding hands and considers that shoving something in his face. In both cases, the person in question is just standing there, yet you see one as a hostile action and the other as perfectly normal. Why? Boi, first and foremost, we are talking about (OK, -I- am talking about) different levels here. The original discussion, as apparently escaped your notice, was about face covering, not head covering. Only a small percentage of Muslim women go to this extreme in a country that is in every other way hospitable to them and respectful of them. But you also missed the point of what was being said. It is unlikely that people shopping where I do do not notice that there are gay/lez couples there just being normal people, like everybody else. It's part of who we are as a community. And all the different skinned people and different head covering people included. Other than the yarmulke wearing crowd, none of the rest of us feel the need or inclination to impose a life choice or a partner choice or a god choice on everybody else. Everybody has a good idea about most of this, has no issue at all with it, but for the most part, most of these people like the community they live in, and respect for others is part of the plan. We all do that. Except for who I mentioned before. But nobody is writing their congress person about it either way, not even about the obnoxious ones.

FullCircle -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 3:22:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn "I also hate the veil altogether, but that's not a matter for public policy" If it takes place in public, it's a matter of public policy. There be the clue. If it takes place at a home or otherwise private venue, then the law should most certainly stay out of it. If others fail to understand this tenet of the country they moved to, then they drive their new host country to make a new law entirely because of these religious zealots' obnoxiousness and disrespect for the host country and the citizens that accommodated them in the first place. The whole point of the veil and the rest of it is presumably to preserve the modesty of the Muslim women in public. There is no real reason, for the most part, for them to wear it at home so it's kind of stupid point to make really don't you think? As soon as people start taking their complaints to the European court of human rights this law will most likely disappear. The French police probably have better things to be doing with their time than enforcing fashion laws. FR The other argument above which relates to how western women have to dress in some middle eastern countries ignores the fact that some middle eastern countries are backwards with no social tolerance. The west on the other hand used to be tolerant of all people and their religious practices. Unfortunately this tolerance seems to be slowly eroding away. There is absolutely no reason as to why a society should force someone to follow a particular dress code. In prison the state tells you how to dress, if it tells you how to dress outside of prison then you really have to wonder where the prison walls extend to. People above have spoken of the need to respect a countries culture well isn't part of that culture a history of tolerance? Who will stand up against the threat posed to that tolerance by narrow minded politicians?

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 4:19:39 PM)
2,000 women within a population of over 4 million Muslims, within a country of 66 million people, which only these 2,000 women show their gratitude to the country and community that accepts them in the first place by saying "fuck you and your damn secular history, I just moved here and I do what I want!" Just helping the cause that the other 3,998,000 Muslims in France are apparently oblivious to. Yeah, that works.

FullCircle -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 4:35:42 PM)
Yes it accepts them but only if they give up their religious practices. That's very accepting. As for gratitude don't forget that people contribute to society. Usually a society gets more out of it's people than the other way around. People seem to have this misguided belief that a society doesn't benefit from immigration and that further still immigrants are a burden. If they were so burdensome then they wouldn't get in, the reality is they are required and so do. Also who is this group of members that are best placed to dictate the rules of this secular society? If you was to ask the average moderate French person they'd probably not care one way or another. It's just a move to appease a bigoted minority to try and prevent the rising popularity of far fight politicians such as Le Pen.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 5:25:36 PM)
What you have just enlightened me to is the fact that those who have political blinders on can only see every event in political terms and in those terms only. Point taken.

hlen5 -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/16/2011 11:43:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle FR .....The other argument above which relates to how western women have to dress in some middle eastern countries ignores the fact that some middle eastern countries are backwards with no social tolerance. The west on the other hand used to be tolerant of all people and their religious practices. Unfortunately this tolerance seems to be slowly eroding away............... Agreed.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 2:51:44 AM)
FR quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle Yes it accepts them but only if they give up their religious practices. That's very accepting. It's a particular attire worn by a few in this instance, not the religious practice. Last I looked, the Mosques are all still open. Religious practice is still accepted. "People seem to have this misguided belief that a society doesn't benefit from immigration and that further still immigrants are a burden." Where in any of the discussion was that said? "Also who is this group of members that are best placed to dictate the rules of this secular society?" France is not a dictatorship. Hyperbole is fun though, isn't it? Lots more fun than facts and reality.

NorthernGent -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 4:34:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Most people, whoever their god, consider their deity more than 'an expression of opinion.' Perhaps so. Politics is another area that can lead to absolutes. Ultimately, though, Edwynn, I have no experience of anyone attempting to convert me to their religion, and I consider there to be a disconnect between expression of religion and coercion towards that religion.

NorthernGent -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 4:36:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower I wish I would be able to claim that it would mean something to me...as nope, it does not [&:] Do some reading around the development of your country and its idea - it's a fascinating place. quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower gosh, there must be something in the air today...frazzle agreed, NorthernGent impresses me today for a change... [&:][&:][&:] As long as you're happy, I'm happy - you know that Pheonix.

yani -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 4:48:45 AM)
hi

NorthernGent -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 4:53:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yani hi Short and sweet eh.....must be from the school of actions speak louder than words.....

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 5:56:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Most people, whoever their god, consider their deity more than 'an expression of opinion.' Perhaps so. Politics is another area that can lead to absolutes. Ultimately, though, Edwynn, I have no experience of anyone attempting to convert me to their religion, and I consider there to be a disconnect between expression of religion and coercion towards that religion. Great observation, that aside from anyone here actually claiming such connection.

LafayetteLady -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 10:06:29 AM)
~FAST REPLY~ Xenophobic? Absolutely not. Saying I am fearful of other cultures based on my statements here is nothing more than trying to hide one's own ignorance by using big words. Incidently, how can these same posters "preach" tolerance while another post support a law prohibiting protest at funerals? While protesting at funerals is clearly disgusting, it is also clearly free speech. So call me what you want, but at least I have consistency on my side. So let's talk about this whole "tolerance" and "let others live as they please as long as it doesn't afect me." Of course, many will make derogatory comments aboutt what I'm about to say but then again they are the ones whose only effort towards standing up for their beliefs or the beliefs of others is to post here so who cares. England tolerant of religious diversity? Really? I mean seriously, england's history of NOT being religiously tolerant is well documented. Why the hell do you believed the US colonies even began if not for religious freedom? So perhaps now the UK shows such tolerance, but historically exactly the opposite. What exactly does the UK contribute to the world today in terms of technology, the space program or anything? When was the last time we heard about any new computer coming from the UK or new developments in space exploration? You're right, you live on an island and still think you are something special. Like it or not, it wasn't that long ago that people took that "tolerant" position because it wasn't impacting them personally. How many millions died and how much destruction came out of that? As Edwynn said there is a world of difference between covering your head and covering your face. And when I am speaking face to face to someone, yes I want them to remove their sunglasses whenever reasonably possible to do so. The extreme sect that wants to cover women's faces is the same extreme sect that does, whether you like it or not, want those of us who don't share their beliefs wiped off the face of the earth. Why should I be tolerant of that?. I have not known a great many muslims personally, but I have known a few. We shared a couple meals together and I did enjoy their company. They were NOT the extremists being discussed here. The only thought I have ever had of muslim women covered head to toe, without the veil, is thinking how cumbersome such dress might be especially in hot weather. I'm still waiting for all the tolerant folks to express how appropriate it would be if it were MEN who were looking for the same right. Would you still have the "what's the big deal?" attitude. For obvious reasons, I doubt it. Which pretty much translates to being sexist, thinking that it only presents danger with men. Essentially, for all of us in the US, UK, Germany and anywhere else that isn't France, our thoughts and opinions mean little. But again, I find it amusing that some are so eager to talk about freedom and tolerance for these women while eagerly willing to stamp out the freedom of others, especially when both groups are acting based on religious beliefs. How misguided we believe those actions to be doesn't matter. For the record, I am completely comfortable saying neither group should have the right to do what they do. I'm consistent. Inconsistency doesn't make intelligent arguments.

Real0ne -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 10:38:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Some great thinkers: in the same way John Locke could be only an Englishman, Martin Heidegger could only be a German. And that comment has nothing to do with his links to the Nazis, more a case of a radical, brilliant, German, conservative mind. Once you've read Heidegger it doesn't matter whether you're liberal or conservative - you will see the world in a totally different light. that hitler was ultimately a wall street pawn?

Politesub53 -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 10:58:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady England tolerant of religious diversity? Really? I mean seriously, england's history of NOT being religiously tolerant is well documented. Why the hell do you believed the US colonies even began if not for religious freedom? So perhaps now the UK shows such tolerance, but historically exactly the opposite. What exactly does the UK contribute to the world today in terms of technology, the space program or anything? When was the last time we heard about any new computer coming from the UK or new developments in space exploration? You're right, you live on an island and still think you are something special. In answer to the first part, a read of European history tells you no where had full religious tolerance 400 years ago. I fail to see what England in 1611 has to do with England in 2011. As for the assertion that Britain never invents anything... Thats so laughable I wont even bother to reply.

geilematz -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/17/2011 11:25:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Oh, by the way, I heard some hearsay that Niedersachsen ("Lower Saxony," for my other friends here) has a law that requires that a man beat his wife everyday, but since I can't see a risk in the near future of moving there anytime soon, I didn't investigate further into the matter for the moment - but I thought it might be illustrating for the issue. not quite, dear Edwynn ... a man had some rights over his wife until the early 70s - like being permitted to forbid her to work or to open a personal bank account - all these were abolished by federal laws in the 70s - there is a principle here "Bundesrecht bricht Landesrecht" (Federal law overrules state law), and so sometimes state constitutions contain things like nationalisation of key industries and the like noone cares about any more and nobody takes the effort to change in a costly and complicated lawmaking process what is of no relevance anyway - but I agree insofar as it might make sound Niedersachsen a paradise for Doms ... but sorry it isn't.

Page: << < prev 7 8 9 [10] 11 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875