RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 6:54:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: kissheels

Country with a backbone or racist?


Shame on the frogs.


Seems that in order to be liberated muslim women must fit into the Western model of the liberated woman. Quite clearly, this is ridiculous - a burrow owl could conceive of this basic contradiction in terms.

What's more, it seems that said Westerm model defines women by how they look, as opposed to the quality of their minds: yet more contradiction. Perhaps a section of Islam seeks to reject a culture that values the exterior over the mind and contribution to society.

In the West, we're so far gone with the concept of style over substance that we can't see any possibility outside of this, and anyone rejecting the obsession with the exterior is seen as some sort of lunatic.

Theoretically, all a bit odd; in practice, consumer societies could only possibly lead to this state of affairs.


NG - I hope that by now, you know enough that I wouldn't spring to the defense of one of my countries of origin in the face of such blatant discrimination; I fucking abhor the ban. I also hate the veil altogether, but that's not a matter for public policy, and nor should it ever be. As a half-frog who was raised in Frogland, my experience is that, although ensconced in the Napoleon Code (Catholically inspired, incidentally), the culture fostered a rather strong feminism. The French cultural petri dish enables women to choose what they wear. It is also UNTHINKABLE for a male French politician to invoke abortion rights as a potentially-winning argument in an election: I laugh when American Conservatives criticize ANYTHING to do with women's rights... whilst actively promoting the reduction of said rights. The hypocrisy [:D] . So, that goes to you guys, out there... you know who you are [8|] .

The idea that women are victimised by the burkha in such a secular country doesn't ring true: Sarkozy isn't trying to protect women's rights. He's making a political stand-off with the National Front, who are his party's direct contenders in the next elections. By "banning the veil", he has postured to stand for women's rights whilst, at the same time, going down on "Muslim oppression of women".




Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 7:16:31 PM)



"I also hate the veil altogether, but that's not a matter for public policy"

If it takes place in public, it's a matter of public policy. There be the clue. If it takes place at a home or otherwise private venue, then the law should most  certainly stay out of it.


If others fail to understand this tenet of the country they moved to, then they drive their new host country to make a new law entirely because of these religious zealots'  obnoxiousness and disrespect for the host country and the citizens that accommodated them in the first place.







Phoenixpower -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 7:33:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

If it takes place in public, it's a matter of public policy. There be the clue. If it takes place at a home or otherwise private venue, then the law should most  certainly stay out of it.


If others fail to understand this tenet of the country they moved to, then they drive their new host country to make a new law entirely because of these religious zealots'  obnoxiousness and disrespect for the host country that accommodated them in the first place.



I agree [:)]

But hey...maybe I should request that we start driving here on the other side of the road now as well [:)] When everything has to be accommodated from the host country [:)]



Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 8:04:36 PM)

Going back to another poster's comments about how we have to act or appear when we go to muslim countries, where they have rules for how one must be dressed, well, they have those rules in place, we observe them and well, most people comply, although I have personally seen western people living and working in certain muslim countries who did not comply with the 'required' standard of dress, and women in amongst them too. But when we as visitors go to such places, the considerate comply with a countries rules, we know about them beforehand.

Now for say a muslim coming to a western country, what rules apply to them, what have they to observe about our standards, is there anything written down anywhere that tells them how not to piss us off, or is it we don't have any requirements ?

Now I have seen many times at point of entry into Islamic countries what is expected and not expected from those coming from the west, do we have anythin similar at our points of entry ?



kittinSol -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 8:13:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

kittin "I also hate the veil altogether, but that's not a matter for public policy"
kittin

If it takes place in public, it's a matter of public policy. There be the clue. If it takes place at a home or otherwise private venue, then the law should most  certainly stay out of it.



People have crosses dangling down their necks; I hate that. People brandish all sorts of placards clamoring all sorts of crap I disagree with; I hate that. People wear hats; I think they look ludicrous. THAT'S NOT A MATTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY.

The fact those things take place in a public forum should not necessarily mean that YOU, because YOU, Edwynn, or whatever your name is, disagree with them, should be able to ban them. Try and tell an American they can't do or say something that's in line with the First Amendment just because "it takes place in public" and you disagree with it... let us laugh in concert :-D.

Sarkozy est un connard de premier ordre; et toi aussi [8D] .




Brain -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 8:23:24 PM)

I just want to put in my two cents and say country with a backbone because it makes it too easy for terrorists to do their evil.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kissheels

Country with a backbone or racist?




Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 8:44:53 PM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

kittin "I also hate the veil altogether, but that's not a matter for public policy"
kittin

If it takes place in public, it's a matter of public policy. There be the clue. If it takes place at a home or otherwise private venue, then the law should most  certainly stay out of it.



quote:

People have crosses dangling down their necks; I hate that. People brandish all sorts of placards clamoring all sorts of crap I disagree with; I hate that. People wear hats; I think they look ludicrous. THAT'S NOT A MATTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY.

The fact those things take place in a public forum should not necessarily mean that YOU, because YOU, Edwynn, or whatever your name is, disagree with them, should be able to ban them. Try and tell an American they can't do or say something that's in line with the First Amendment just because "it takes place in public" and you disagree with it... let us laugh in concert :-D.

Sarkozy est un connard de premier ordre; et toi aussi .





There have actually been some locally enacted and somewhat enforced bans on the exposure of public ass by way of the droopy "my mama didn't pull my pants up before I left the house" look, in both the US and the UK.

But in any case, the discussion was about a country other than the US or UK, (that knocked you off your block straight away, didn't it?) that took measures to deal with some minority of the latest immigrants they accept as a matter of course, such few numbers amoungst them thumbing their nose at their hosts.


Not that you would understand any of that. I can see the commiseration of obnoxious people to obnoxious people there, quite easily.


Oh, that and the fact that you conflate Saturday night frivolous garb with everyday religious attire I cannot avoid if I go to the grocery store being completely lost to your comprehension notwithstanding, any law that reduces innate obnoxiousness isn't all that bad a law, if it saves me from constant exposure to such.






TheRaptorJesus -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 8:59:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Going back to another poster's comments about how we have to act or appear when we go to muslim countries, where they have rules for how one must be dressed, well, they have those rules in place, we observe them and well, most people comply, although I have personally seen western people living and working in certain muslim countries who did not comply with the 'required' standard of dress, and women in amongst them too. But when we as visitors go to such places, the considerate comply with a countries rules, we know about them beforehand.

Now for say a muslim coming to a western country, what rules apply to them, what have they to observe about our standards, is there anything written down anywhere that tells them how not to piss us off, or is it we don't have any requirements ?



Well, now France now has something.

Maybe others will follow.



tweakabelle -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:04:50 PM)

quote:

It is also UNTHINKABLE for a male French politician to invoke abortion rights as a potentially-winning argument in an election: I laugh when American Conservatives criticize ANYTHING to do with women's rights... whilst actively promoting the reduction of said rights. The hypocrisy . So, that goes to you guys, out there... you know who you are .

The idea that women are victimised by the burkha in such a secular country doesn't ring true: Sarkozy isn't trying to protect women's rights. He's making a political stand-off with the National Front, who are his party's direct contenders in the next elections. By "banning the veil", he has postured to stand for women's rights whilst, at the same time, going down on "Muslim oppression of women".


Yes. Your analysis is spot on. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that there are lofty principles of secularism or womens' freedom at stake here. It's just another grubby bit of cheap populism designed to assist in Sarkozy's re-election. If the opinion polls are a reliable guide, Sarkozy needs a lot of help.

Personally I view the burqa with extreme distaste. But that's no reason to abolish a person's right to choose it if that is what they want for themselves, regardless of the reasons they find persuasive. Is wearing it a matter of public policy, a challenge to the secular values of France? I need a lot more convincing before I can accept that.

Sad as it is to say it, when asked to choose between political self-interest and commitment to women's welfare and/or high principle as an explanation of a politician's behaviour, I find the choice is very easy.



Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:14:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

kittin "I also hate the veil altogether, but that's not a matter for public policy"
kittin

If it takes place in public, it's a matter of public policy. There be the clue. If it takes place at a home or otherwise private venue, then the law should most  certainly stay out of it.



People have crosses dangling down their necks; I hate that. People brandish all sorts of placards clamoring all sorts of crap I disagree with; I hate that. People wear hats; I think they look ludicrous. THAT'S NOT A MATTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY.

The fact those things take place in a public forum should not necessarily mean that YOU, because YOU, Edwynn, or whatever your name is, disagree with them, should be able to ban them. Try and tell an American they can't do or say something that's in line with the First Amendment just because "it takes place in public" and you disagree with it... let us laugh in concert :-D.

Sarkozy est un connard de premier ordre; et toi aussi [8D] .




Now odd you should mention hats, because I wear one most of the time when I 'm out, an Aussie bush hat in black leather or is it Kanga skin, anyway I wear it because I don't like getting my hair wet or fried when the sun is shining, but when I do wear it in town I notice the surveillance nation cameras swivel around and follow, now, is it just me they suspect or the fact that given their height above street level, they cannot see my face.

Now for those that don't like the surveillance nation intrusion, get the nation to wear wide brimmed hats and see if a law comes out to ban them sein as the authorities have been thwarted.



Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:20:57 PM)


Yes, every public issue, for the recently arrived, is actually solely an issue of the latest election concerns.


Sarkozy wasn't around in 2004 when the first law got passed, much less in 1905 when the groundwork was laid.

But in any case this 'demand' that France needs explain their own course to others, even after being undeniably more accommodating to foreigners than these same others, is cause for quite a laugh.








tweakabelle -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:36:32 PM)

quote:

Edwynn
Sarkozy wasn't around in 2004 when the first law got passed, much less in 1905 when the groundwork was laid.


Sarkozy served two terms as Minister for Interior in France, the first from 7 May 2002 - 30 March 2004 and the second from from June 2005 - March 2007. As Minister of the Interior, he would have had a role in the passage of legislation such as this. I am unaware of the exact role he played, but he was certainly "around".*


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy#First_term_as_Minister_of_the_Interior



Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:39:12 PM)

So, France has banned the Burqa, let's see this as an experiment and see what happens.

If we are wise, we will do so.

But out of interest if in time other governments followed France's lead, I wonder if reprecussive action if any is selective, meaning that not all countries might be seen as equal in their offence or indeed not as politically important.

Perhaps a stand is needed, perhaps a stand is even respected, perhaps this is what those that rail against us are seeking, who knows.

We can just wait and see, and hope above all hopes France's lead does not result in the loss or damage to innocent people's lives.



rulemylife -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:39:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Going back to another poster's comments about how we have to act or appear when we go to muslim countries, where they have rules for how one must be dressed, well, they have those rules in place, we observe them and well, most people comply, although I have personally seen western people living and working in certain muslim countries who did not comply with the 'required' standard of dress, and women in amongst them too. But when we as visitors go to such places, the considerate comply with a countries rules, we know about them beforehand.

Now for say a muslim coming to a western country, what rules apply to them, what have they to observe about our standards, is there anything written down anywhere that tells them how not to piss us off, or is it we don't have any requirements ?

Now I have seen many times at point of entry into Islamic countries what is expected and not expected from those coming from the west, do we have anythin similar at our points of entry ?




So let me get this straight.

If we visit a muslim country we have to conform to their culture.

But if a muslim visits a western country we still have to conform to their culture?



kdsub -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:42:38 PM)

Maybe he is saying we...meaning western society...should be better at personal freedoms then Islamic countries.



Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:45:52 PM)


It's all on Sarkozy then. No other concerns about it, being that the dictator held sway all the while.


Do you think that the Muslim immigrants (the vast majority of which learned and understood and accepted the laws of the host country of France) worried much about Sarkozy in all this? They learned about Germany and France and the UK and made their choice accordingly, themselves knowing far more than westerners that elections mean squat. Results are what matter.









Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 9:57:04 PM)

No, what I am saying, is they have specific requirements posted before we enter their regions, we can of course comply if we seek to be unoffensive or unchallenging or even sensitive to their way of life, the choice is ours to make,but in the west, America for example, are there any requirements posted that faces must be shown at all times, are the Muslims that wear the veil required to show their face at all times, is there a requirement, for sure there is none in Britain that I am aware of.

And something else, I wonder if anyone has noticed some of the Japanese community and their use of the surgeons type mask when they are in public, surely that also qualifies as a face covering, are they to be banned too, or is it they are the wrong religion.

And if we go along these paths, heavens help us if we have a particularly cold winter, for in those conditions one if face recognition is essential at all times will have to go around with a frozen face for scarves and mufflers that are worn about the face should be banned also.

In this issue one has to decide what is the issue, is it the west needs facial recognition at all times or is it a reaction against people whose originating cultures our governments are at war with. In which case in being reactionary, are you buying into the information you are told as the reason for being in such resource rich countries, you know the possible reason why cash is tight and your liberties are being curtailed for, what is it, your own protection.



LafayetteLady -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/15/2011 8:33:14 AM)

~FAST REPLY~

Reality check time folks.

Do all TWO MILLION MUSLIMS in Britain wear a burqua and cover their face? NOPE.

Do all the muslims in the world ascribe to this type of "religiously" based mode of dress? Again, NOPE.

So now here we have a bunch of idiots using the term "muslim" and applying the burqa to EVERY muslim female and talking about how horrible those of us who feel COVERING YOUR FACE in public places should not be permitted for security purposes. Let's not discount the fact that this particular sect of muslims are the same ones who want to kill those who don't share their beliefs (which strictly speaking is NOT in the Quoran).

So it is ok for you to go on an on about how they have these "rights" to dress how they want while you pathically group all muslims together, which in itself is racist.

As for enacting laws that apply to a large percent of the population? Are you serious? Laws apply to the ENTIRE population of a nation.

Get a freaking grip on reality folks and look at your ridiculous arguments. This isn't about women's rights, it isn't about freedom of expression or religion. It is about a country's decisions about national security. If you don't like the countries rules and laws, stay the hell out, it's really that simple.



Phoenixpower -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/15/2011 8:43:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If you don't like the countries rules and laws, stay the hell out, it's really that simple.


well said [:)]

quote:

So let me get this straight.

If we visit a muslim country we have to conform to their culture.

But if a muslim visits a western country we still have to conform to their culture?


Apparently, thats what some folks consider to be totally ok and normal [8|]



NorthernGent -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/15/2011 10:50:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


NG - I hope that by now, you know enough that I wouldn't spring to the defense of one of my countries of origin in the face of such blatant discrimination



I know. Where have you been Kittin, anyway?



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