RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa)

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 9:30:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: kissheels quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: kissheels there is a difference between a turban and a burqa, turban does not cover the face.... besides women wearing this scare the shit out of the kids on the street.. if I wear a ski mask and walk in a bank, what do You think will happen? I urge you to run a few tests here...try some different banks in your area and please do get back to us with the results [:)] ahh a smartass lol And this surprises you? ;) So you are not surprised ?You have long been aware of my smart ass,tell me how you came about this knowledge?

kdsub -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 9:38:58 AM)
Thanks for the long response...as I'm saying there are two sides to this argument...and both have merit..it does not have to be racism however. Butch

NorthernGent -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 12:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: kissheels Country with a backbone or racist? Shame on the frogs. Seems that in order to be liberated muslim women must fit into the Western model of the liberated woman. Quite clearly, this is ridiculous - a burrow owl could conceive of this basic contradiction in terms. What's more, it seems that said Westerm model defines women by how they look, as opposed to the quality of their minds: yet more contradiction. Perhaps a section of Islam seeks to reject a culture that values the exterior over the mind and contribution to society. In the West, we're so far gone with the concept of style over substance that we can't see any possibility outside of this, and anyone rejecting the obsession with the exterior is seen as some sort of lunatic. Theoretically, all a bit odd; in practice, consumer societies could only possibly lead to this state of affairs.

Phoenixpower -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 1:02:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: kissheels Country with a backbone or racist? Shame on the frogs. Seems that in order to be liberated muslim women must fit into the Western model of the liberated woman. Quite clearly, this is ridiculous - a burrow owl could conceive of this basic contradiction in terms. What's more, it seems that said Westerm model defines women by how they look, as opposed to the quality of their minds: yet more contradiction. Perhaps a section of Islam seeks to reject a culture that values the exterior over the mind and contribution to society.In the West, we're so far gone with the concept of style over substance that we can't see any possibility outside of this, and anyone rejecting the obsession with the exterior is seen as some sort of lunatic. Theoretically, all a bit odd; in practice, consumer societies could only possibly lead to this state of affairs. which is surely why statements like this exist: In some Islamic nations, women are ... deprived of education, prohibited from driving a car or competing with men for a job. quoted from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/12/jimmy-carter-womens-rights-equality so yeah...I can surely see how some Islamic nations do value intelligence over looks [8\|] snort

LafayetteLady -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 2:04:39 PM)
~FAST REPLY~ As some others have said why should any country bend over backward to accomodate visitors or immigrants? I know that sounds horrible so I will elaborate. Every country seems to be dealing with other cultures demanding we bend to suit them. In the US we have the spanish who think they shouldn't have to learn english, rather we should learn spanish to accomodate them. In Germany they have the turks doing the same thing. Those are just two examples. In countries where burkas are commonplace, should we visit, we are expected to respect that country's culture and rules. Woman should dress modestly, etc. Why then, when people from those countries visit us (USA, GB, France, Germany, etc) they expect us to still bend to their culture? I can speak some spanish and understand quite a bit more. But I will not use spanish with anyone who has been here more than a year and still speaks no english. I am 2nd generation Italian-American. When my grandfather came to this country he had to learn english to work here. Same for the Germans, Polish, Asian, etc. I could see burkas being accepted in the confines of their community (think chinese in Chinatown) but in the general population? As some have pointed out, men have used burkas to disguise themselves and smart ones can easily adjust their "gait" to look like a woman. Further, woman do commit crimes! Each country has the right to reject immigrants "customs." That is why domestic abuse trumps custom and genital mutilation is forbidden. Or perhaps some of you think those should be permitted for immigrants with those cultural customs. I mentioned earlier (and was interestingly ignored) that if it were a custom for MEN, most of the women here would be ranting in the other direction. I would suggest to all those feminists seeking equality that you learn the meaning of the word. If you wouldn't argue that men should be able to walk around covered completely except for their eyes; then your argument for women to do so is doomed from the start.

Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 5:23:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: kissheels Country with a backbone or racist? Shame on the frogs. Seems that in order to be liberated muslim women must fit into the Western model of the liberated woman. Quite clearly, this is ridiculous - a burrow owl could conceive of this basic contradiction in terms. What's more, it seems that said Westerm model defines women by how they look, as opposed to the quality of their minds: yet more contradiction. Perhaps a section of Islam seeks to reject a culture that values the exterior over the mind and contribution to society.In the West, we're so far gone with the concept of style over substance that we can't see any possibility outside of this, and anyone rejecting the obsession with the exterior is seen as some sort of lunatic. Theoretically, all a bit odd; in practice, consumer societies could only possibly lead to this state of affairs. which is surely why statements like this exist: In some Islamic nations, women are ... deprived of education, prohibited from driving a car or competing with men for a job. quoted from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/12/jimmy-carter-womens-rights-equality so yeah...I can surely see how some Islamic nations do value intelligence over looks [8\|] snort And please correct me if I am wrong, but it was not too far in our own culture's past that women were similarly oppressed in our societies and still are in some respects, wages for example. Remember women had to fight for the vote, Emily Pankhurst and her mob risked jail death by hunger strikes and being run down and killed by horses just to be reconised as equal to men in terms of voting for who runs the country. Further back, marriage the husband took the women's property leaving her totally dependant on the husband for life or else the option was destitution. The past in our society women had few rights and now we look at Islam and see what only about a hundred years or so we have left behind, but it is not that far in our past for us to think ourselves so righteous for the more exposure to western ways of life, the more the chance that the wrongs we perceive in immigrants will be removed if we allow others to in their own time integrate. And integrate many will, for the western way of life holds many chances for those that seek more, and those that don't seek more, are quite honestly better off in countries where there is no chance for improvement, countries which are quite often the countries where Islamic immigrants come from. So, if you desire to see change, live and let live, for change will come when change is ready to come.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 7:35:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady ~FAST REPLY~ As some others have said why should any country bend over backward to accomodate visitors or immigrants? I know that sounds horrible so I will elaborate. Every country seems to be dealing with other cultures demanding we bend to suit them. In the US we have the spanish who think they shouldn't have to learn english, rather we should learn spanish to accomodate them. In Germany they have the turks doing the same thing. Those are just two examples. In countries where burkas are commonplace, should we visit, we are expected to respect that country's culture and rules. Woman should dress modestly, etc. Why then, when people from those countries visit us (USA, GB, France, Germany, etc) they expect us to still bend to their culture? I can speak some spanish and understand quite a bit more. But I will not use spanish with anyone who has been here more than a year and still speaks no english. I am 2nd generation Italian-American. When my grandfather came to this country he had to learn english to work here. Same for the Germans, Polish, Asian, etc. I could see burkas being accepted in the confines of their community (think chinese in Chinatown) but in the general population? As some have pointed out, men have used burkas to disguise themselves and smart ones can easily adjust their "gait" to look like a woman. Further, woman do commit crimes! Each country has the right to reject immigrants "customs." That is why domestic abuse trumps custom and genital mutilation is forbidden. Or perhaps some of you think those should be permitted for immigrants with those cultural customs. I mentioned earlier (and was interestingly ignored) that if it were a custom for MEN, most of the women here would be ranting in the other direction. I would suggest to all those feminists seeking equality that you learn the meaning of the word. If you wouldn't argue that men should be able to walk around covered completely except for their eyes; then your argument for women to do so is doomed from the start. Touchy subject here, expecting immigrants to accommodate themselves to the country which they chose as a new home, away from the country that had accommodated their public attire as pronouncement of their religious faith.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 7:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn France has long been a secular state and because of all the troubles historically attributable to religious conflict has made several laws to formally establish itself as such, the most fundamental one being enacted in 1905. The ban on wearing of yarmulkes, burqas, or large crosses in public schools in 2004 was enacted as an application of this law. This latest law is just extending application of the 1905 law further, and in line with the 2004 law. France has a history of an overbearing state stretching back to the 1700s when France produced and exported all sorts of goods, and the state syphoned off huge swathes of income in the form of taxes (it probably stretches back well before). This isn't about securalism; it's about power. Edited to add: the debate raged among our politicians for all of one minute here, and the conclusion drawn is that it would be unEnglish to tell people what to wear. Quite right, too. England has never had nearly as many Jews or Muslims as continental Europe, and the numbers are not even close. As we speak, the Muslims in France or Germany each outnumber the UK accommodation by more than two to one. These people do their research beforehand, so it's a wonder why they choose away from the UK, don'cha think? Good Brit boy there, I must say, telling the world that France is "all about the power." The deflection might work there, but the rest of the world might not always be so easily distracted from reality by such flippancy. Nice try.

LafayetteLady -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 8:03:56 PM)
I totally disagree that it's a touchy subject. Unless you were being sarcastic and because it is late for me (sadly late is after 10 for me, lol), in which case nevermind. The point is that the culture these people are coming from are violently adamant that we must abide by THEIR laws and cultural mores while in their country. So why then should the countries they visit bend their laws when they visit. We are NOT simply talking about a mode of dress. We are talking about the right to walk around with your face covered when the world climate necessitates the ability to see ones face. Wear as much covering as you like but your face must be visible. It just so happens that women are the typical wearers of face covering veils, but several people have pointed out where men have used this method of dress for the purpose of violence. And again, let's not discount women's ability to commit crimes. With the face covered, how can they be identified? If the police then brought in every women wearing the veil, then y'all would start screaming about profiling. Comparing a turban to the veil is idiocy. Sure, there could be anything under that mass of cloth on the guy's head, but we can still see his FACE. Freedom is not the same as "free for all" where people can behave any way they want. That would be chaos. Laws are enacted for the safety of everyone, not to accomodate a few.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 8:10:37 PM)
Yes, it was sarcasm, sorry you missed the obvious there. But as a lifelong sleep deprived person myself, I understand situational or temporary lack of immediate grasp of every event or expression of others. An ongoing situation here.

hlen5 -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 8:52:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady ....We are NOT simply talking about a mode of dress......world climate necessitates the ability to see ones face...... Comparing a turban to the veil is idiocy................ Freedom is not the same as "free for all" where people can behave any way they want..... LLady, I do agree if one is an immigrant, one should adapt to the social mores of the new place. The US was founded on individual liberty. In that sense, without breaking a specific law it IS pretty much a "free for all". We are not talking about a mode of dress, we are talking about the expression of one's faith (No, the Koran does not dictate the burka specifically). It was in that vein that I DID compare the burka to a turban, both being religious wear. Of course a Driver's license (or passport, etc) should have the driver's picture. But what law would someone be breaking by not showing their face as a matter of course? If that's the case, we should outlaw dark sunglasses. In another post on this thread I said if it is freely worn and not imposed upon a woman, then let them wear the burka. Who are we to say they cannot dress in the way they feel they must for religion?

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 9:41:40 PM)
quote: We are not talking about a mode of dress, we are talking about the expression of one's faith Exactly, ostentatious public display of such expression for which France has not had any use for decades, and for that I congratulate them wholeheartedly.

kdsub -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/13/2011 9:42:12 PM)
How about a law that requires information about the legality of certain dress when applying for a passport of entry visa. Make sure future potential immigrants know the law and they may be subject to expulsion. Then they have a choice before they make commitments. In the mean time allow existing people to apply for a temporary permit that requires an interview. Let then know they will be given a period of time, say two years, they will be allowed to wear the Burqa. Provide free concealing if they request it on alternate modest dress and other potential social issues between the two cultures. Not of course a good answer but perhaps better than a arbitrary one. Butch

Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 4:09:34 AM)
The thing is about those that dress in such a way as to hide their features, is they come from places where it is expected, but when they come to the west, they know we live in a free'er society where much is permitted, so if much is permitted they can continue with their old ways, it is what freedom is all about. Now if we turn around and prohibit their mode of dress, what are we saying, our society is not free, or not free for them, which then could be called sectarianism or even racism. Because we have no laws in place to say everyone must have their facial features on display at all times before people come to our countries, we cannot very well create them after the fact, for the reasons mentioned above. Now the only way I can say a law can be created to curb the face covering, is a law or requirement under the draconian anti terror laws that we now have in place due to terrorist actions by a minority, of course charges of racism will be levelled, but as we all know the draconian anti terror laws control us all against our better judgement and even inhibit our own liberties. But the question is for anti terror laws to be used to inhibit a person's mode of dress, we have to be careful what we are asking, because those same laws if allowed for a minority can also be extended to other minorities until the majority is unfairly controlled by what many see as sinister motivations. We have to decide if we are free or we are not, in which case if we are free, then those that come to our lands are also free and vice versa.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 4:45:12 AM)
"Because we have no laws in place to say everyone must have their facial features on display at all times before people come to our countries, we cannot very well create them after the fact," So you are saying then that every society needs to have 'pre-emptive' or anticipatory laws of all sorts to account for every possible occurrence, whether currently an issue or not. How lovely. We only enacted laws against internet crime of various sorts 'after the fact,' so we are a bunch of racist uncaring fear mongering twits, have I got that right?

Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 5:07:27 AM)
What other way is there to do it, if the premise is required, but if those that wear the burqa do so because of a culturo/religious identity, then at the same time as outlawing one minorities culturo/religious identity, one must for the sake of fairness outlaw other forms of culturo/religious identity in others or else be seen as racist or seeking to define second class citizenry. You knew of course our liberal ways regards freedom of expression were going to bite us in the ass one day didn't you. But then on another thought what these people are doing could be considered an insidious attack on the freedoms of the west, by challenging our way of life in the most sublime way, that of attire. The result is we are seeing laws being created against their actions, laws which leave us open to abuse from others and quite possibly, when the ball starts rolling the loss of freedom for us all, exactly what those nut jobs in unfree societies want, we are quite possibly playing into their hands.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 5:19:50 AM)
Yes, just as France banned wearing of large christian crosses and burqas and yarmulkes in public schools in 2004, and the US has to fend off people wanting the ten commandments displayed in government buildings ... We are playing directly into their hands! Oh, but if only we were to see the folly!

rulemylife -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 5:25:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: rockspider To many if you may ask me. And for 6 month of my life i hardly meet any other than Muslims which is not unusual if you live in a Muslim country. There the rule was to follow their rules or get punished. As simple as that. No pork, no women, no booze and total respect for their religion. If you didn´t like it you could get the fuck out of their country. Surely you knew the laws out there before you went ? It isnt just Muslims who cant eat pork either. His point is that Muslim countries expect outsiders to conform to their beliefs while claiming discrimination in other countries.

Aneirin -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 5:55:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Yes, just as France banned wearing of large christian crosses and burqas and yarmulkes in public schools in 2004, and the US has to fend off people wanting the ten commandments displayed in government buildings ... We are playing directly into their hands! Oh, but if only we were to see the folly! Then what has to be defined by the people concerned, is why they wear such attire, is it cultural, is religious, is it traditional, what is it,is it just freedom of choice being exercised in a free'er country, for it must have an originating reason as defined by the culture concerned, not our culture. Perhaps instead of attack on these people, we should be asking them why, and there let them dig to the root of that which they know offends some of the majority and at the same time gently remind them that the country in which they live is not the country in which they or their ancestors come from, therefore in a free'er society freedom is expected, but it can cut many ways. A question could be when does one man's freedom entail the oppression of others, for we have to draw balance somewhere for the continuation and acceptance of a free society and what it holds dear, which is simply freedom in life, but within accepted guidelines that are designed to ensure the balance in society, i.e. no conflict be that physical emotional or mental. Live and let live for those that accept it and promote it.

Edwynn -> RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) (4/14/2011 6:17:59 AM)
France just answered those questions for themselves. I myself feel intruded upon by somebody wearing attire that says "my god is the only true god," which, while we're at it, is telling me that my god (if I have one) is not the true god if I am not wearing what they are wearing. I have no inclination to put up with such nonsense when I'm just trying to buy a bag of grapes.

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