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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/12/2011 10:46:51 PM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Lockedaway, DUDE!If you are really interested in some kind of Jesus study you ought to move OUT of collarchat, which is full of perverts, idiotic fanatics, heavens and agnostics and people that just don't know and that spout crappy shit all day. Here you shan't find your answer.

GO BACK TO UNIVERSITY.

(Jesus was still born as a normal man whose life was seized upon by maniacs.)

I told ya`ll that cons weren`t comfortable with liberation theology....

Those peasants are revolting......

"We sick an' tired of-a your ism-skism game -
Dyin' 'n' goin' to heaven in-a Jesus' name, lord.
We know when we understand:
Almighty god is a living man.
You can fool some people sometimes,
But you can't fool all the people all the time.
So now we see the light (what you gonna do?),
We gonna stand up for our rights! (yeah, yeah, yeah! ) "

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/12/2011 10:48:17 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 61

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/12/2011 10:55:24 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This con way of cherry picking the parts of Jesus`teachings...

It is always gratifying when someone is kind enough to so promptly provide an example of the point I was making. This liberal tendency to cry "cherry picking" is nothing more or less than an argument for blindness, demanding that discernment be stamped out at all cost.

In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. ~Thomas Jefferson

But not, apparently, for certain liberals.

K.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 62

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/12/2011 10:59:16 PM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
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In the American sense yes he was, but to me Jesus was a good honest socialist and a Bolshevik to boot.

And just like Stalin did after Lenin the Catholic Church set itself up as an authority based on his teachings which explains why the Catholic Church is structured like the Communist Party under Stalin.

This is how he ended up crucified. The right wingers went for Barabus who was a robber and thief and quite insane.

Not much has changed in those 2,000 years.

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

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Post #: 63

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/12/2011 11:01:50 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This con way of cherry picking the parts of Jesus`teachings...

It is always gratifying when someone is kind enough to so promptly provide an example of the point I was making. This liberal tendency to cry "cherry picking" is nothing more or less than an argument for blindness, demanding that discernment be stamped out at all cost.

In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. ~Thomas Jefferson

But not, apparently, for certain liberals.

K.

I think that this is one reason he(Jefferson) prefered a wall of separation between church and state.

Not a bad idea.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 64

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/12/2011 11:34:04 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Actually, locked, Ive been counting the people, not the posts because some folks, Myself included, have posted multiple times and it's about 2:1 that he was liberal.

Have you adjusted for the ratio of liberals to conservatives in these parts?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 65

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 3:18:27 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Lockedaway, DUDE!If you are really interested in some kind of Jesus study you ought to move OUT of collarchat, which is full of perverts, idiotic fanatics, heavens and agnostics and people that just don't know and that spout crappy shit all day. Here you shan't find your answer.

GO BACK TO UNIVERSITY.

(Jesus was still born as a normal man whose life was seized upon by maniacs.)

Hey, hey, hey, stop that!

I like being a pervert.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 66

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 5:27:12 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Actually, locked, Ive been counting the people, not the posts because some folks, Myself included, have posted multiple times and it's about 2:1 that he was liberal.

Have you adjusted for the ratio of liberals to conservatives in these parts?

Nope, I was counting posts on this particular topic as locked indicated he had.

We also have some slightly conservative/moderates who think Jesus was a liberal for his time like Me.

If you think about it, a far Right Wing conservative would probably be MORE likely to think any given person, Jesus included, was a liberal based on their position to the far right of the spectrum (thus almost everything is to the 'left' of them).

Does that make sense?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 67

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 6:36:18 AM

outhere69

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Jesus was Jewish, and part of a tradition that provided for the poor. The following is is an excerpt from another site.

"The early rabbis studied the Biblical traditions carefully. Their goal was to apply the biblical mandates to all facets of daily life. They interpreted exactly how the biblical commands should be put into practice in the life of the community. From this rabbinic study emerged a variety of activities aimed at fulfilling the biblical commands. Specific practices changed through the centuries and varied with cultures. Still, the basic commitment to helping others remained a central feature of Judaism.

By New Testament times Jews already had a specific term for these deeds. The whole range of compassionate activities toward others was called gemilut chasidim ("the bestowal of loving kindness" or "acts of compassion").

A major aspect of gemilut chasidim was charity and almsgiving for the poor. The rabbis described such charity as tsedakah ("righteousness" or "justice"). Rabbi Eleazar interpreted Proverbs 21:3 ("To do righteousness [tsedakah] and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.") to mean that charity for the needy was more important than sacrifices offered in the temple (note Isa. 1:10-17).

In describing donations to the needy as tsedakah the rabbis convey that providing for the poor is not a favor granted by the giver. The needy have a God-given right to aid and the giver has an obligation to God to help. Jews call such an obligation a mitsvah ("command"). The rabbis held that as faithful worshippers of God Jews should seek opportunities to perform mitsvot (plural of mitsvah). So, acts of compassion were not a burden for the Jew. They were simply part of being God's people in God's world and therefore should be done with joy.

The attitude behind charity for the needy was that all possessions, lands, and goods ultimately belonged to God. A rabbinic story told about a Jewish sage emphasizes this view. A beggar came to the sage expecting food. The sage asked him what he usually ate. The poor man replied, "Fatted chicken and aged wine." The sage chided the beggar for expecting so much and thus taxing the resources of the community. The man responded, "Do I eat what is theirs? I eat what is God's."

Poverty was widespread in the early centuries of Judaism. Jews sometimes viewed it as an unalterable condition of human existence. They realized the suffering that poverty could produce. One rabbi commented that poverty is the worst of all sufferings in the world. Another said, "Poverty in a man's house is worse than fifty plagues."

Still, they often viewed poverty as having positive value. It forced the poor to depend on God: "A man becomes Godfearing only through poverty." And it provided those who had plenty the opportunity to serve God through generosity to their fellowmen. Wealth was not necessarily bad. The purpose of wealth, according to early rabbis, was to provide the opportunity to alleviate the suffering of those in need. Jewish teachers developed extensive guidelines concerning charitable giving. Every member of the community was required to give to the needy. Even the poor were expected to help those less fortunate than themselves. Sometimes people who refused to give were flogged publicly. A portion of their property could even be seized and donated to charity. In effect, this eventually became a "tax" upon Jews for the support of public welfare. Normally, Jews gave at least a tenth of their wealth to charity. Any less betrayed a stingy person. No more than a fifth of one's resources could be given, however, lest that person become poor himself and need assistance."

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 68

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 7:40:19 AM

Marc2b

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The question posed by the OP is impossible to answer because we know very little about the real Jesus. Most of what we have today are fictional versions created to advance some political or religious (often the two are the same) agenda. This is why there are so many contradictions in the Bible (and not just about Jesus). Just one example: What exactly were Jesus’ last words before he died on the cross? It depends on which Gospel you’re reading:

In Matthew and Mark it’s: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

In Luke it’s: “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.”

And in John it’s: “It is finished.”

From what we do know, the real Jesus was the illegitimate son of a whore who (being illegitimate) was treated rather shabbily by the community and the priesthood. Resentful, he began to speak out against the religious authorities and got himself stoned (not crucified!) for it. His body, in accordance with rabbinic law, was hung from a tree as an example to others.

Acts 5:30 – “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.”

Christian apologist’s attempts to “explain” that the tree is a metaphor for the cross simply don’t wash. The simple fact of the matter is that at the time Acts was written, the doctrine of the crucifixion simply hadn’t been invented yet.

Another reason why the question is unanswerable is the changing definitions of terms like liberal and conservative. The American Founding Fathers, by today’s standards, were quite conservative; but by the standards of their day they were liberal, even radical.

“A country without a king? Surely you jest?”

“We don’t jest… and please don’t call us Shirley.”

(sorry… I couldn’t resist)

Anyone interested in reading more, I recommend two books:

"The Making of the Messiah," by Robert Schaffer and "The Bible Against Itself," by Randel Helms. There are a great many other good books, of course.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 69

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 7:48:04 AM

Marc2b

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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

What's the difference? The principle's the same. People need to help each other out and care for other members of their community. Why split hairs?

He is not splitting hairs. The difference is that government is concentrated power. Power seeks to expand and you don't expand by actually helping people out (because then they wouldn't need you anymore) but by pretending you are helping them and by stringing them along, convicing them that they need you (and your vote!) to really do things right. If the principle was the same then we'd be living in a utopia right now under the care of a benevolent government. Real help comes from people "on the ground," and not from the "wise and caring" rulers in high places. The local food pantry and clothes closet has done more to help struggling people in my town than any bumbling, corrupt, government program could ever do.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 4/13/2011 7:59:33 AM >

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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Post #: 70

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:05:32 AM

truckinslave

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quote:

he was a heck of a moral person

Which is why he never intimated that any individual had any right to the property or services of another.

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 71

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:23:03 AM

DomYngBlk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

This hits politics AND religion.

What do you think?

Was Jesus a liberal?

Why or why not? Please folks, documentation, not made-up bluster.

By the way, as background, I'm agnostic but I feel he was a heck of a moral person and a GREAT role model.

Jesus was a "communist".....lay down your possesions and follow me........love your neighbor as you love yourself.....whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me....

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 72

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:32:30 AM

Marc2b

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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Jesus was a "communist".....lay down your possesions and follow me........love your neighbor as you love yourself.....whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me....

If Jesus was a communist then where is the part where he says: "and anyone who disagrees with us will be exacuted or thrown in the Gulag to be beaten daily and worked to death?"

Oh... wait...

He did threaten those who refuse to submit with an eternity of agony in fire.

My bad. You're right and I'm wrong. He was a commie mother fucker after all.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Post #: 73

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:37:38 AM

DomYngBlk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

No...Jesus was NOT a liberal. The New Testament (a book that allegedly contains quotes and teachings of Christ) says that Christ said "The man that does not work, should not eat." That doesn't sound very liberal to me. Christ allegedly also said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." That really doesn't imply liberalism either. Christ we CERTAINLY not a social liberal. "I'm ok, your ok" did not apply to Christ. Christ was more of a "go forth but sin no further" kind of guy.

Sounds like you don't understand the context of either one of those quotes........

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 74

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:39:38 AM

DomYngBlk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Jesus was a "communist".....lay down your possesions and follow me........love your neighbor as you love yourself.....whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me....

If Jesus was a communist then where is the part where he says: "and anyone who disagrees with us will be exacuted or thrown in the Gulag to be beaten daily and worked to death?"

Oh... wait...

He did threaten those who refuse to submit with an eternity of agony in fire.

My bad. You're right and I'm wrong. He was a commie mother fucker after all.

you are confusing terms again. try google...then come back

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 75

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:24:10 AM

liks2plzlf

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The bibled tells what Jesus will be. He will be a king, not some dishonest, self serving politicion, which both republicans and democrats are. He will be a loving, compassionate, just king. If he were into politics, he would be like me, an independent. I vote for the candidate not the party

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 76

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:26:13 AM

mnottertail

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Who do you think Jesus is voting for then? I am gonna seriously doubt the shit outta Lieberman for what I would consider obvious reasons.

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Post #: 77

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:26:34 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

The following is is an excerpt from another site...

Personally, I would not be inclined to bet the farm on a Christian exegesis of the Hebrew scriptures, or to rely on a site devoted to providing "resources for growing Christians" for my information about Rabbinical thought and Judaism.

Just sayin.

K.

(in reply to outhere69)

Post #: 78

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:34:33 AM

lockedaway

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Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

This hits politics AND religion.

What do you think?

Was Jesus a liberal?

Why or why not? Please folks, documentation, not made-up bluster.

By the way, as background, I'm agnostic but I feel he was a heck of a moral person and a GREAT role model.

Jesus was a "communist".....lay down your possesions and follow me........love your neighbor as you love yourself.....whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me....

I'm sorry, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. A wealthy man was telling Jesus how he wanted to follow Jesus. Jesus told that man to lay down his riches and divest himself of his worldly goods. The man said that Jesus was ridiculous and was asking too much. The man went away and Jesus (allegedly...you always have to say allegedly on this site) said to his apostles to the effect "See? You cannot serve two masters. His love for money supercedes his love for the word of God and that is why it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Christ was absolutely not a communist nor a liberal. The moral of the lesson is that you can't serve any master that takes precedence to Christ. That doesn't only apply to money. It applies to sex, alcohol, the power of office...ANY earthly pleasure for that matter. You would do well to read a more modern translation of the New Testament with interpretive footnotes. You are reading that story far too literally and narrowly.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)

Post #: 79

RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:40:03 AM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

This hits politics AND religion.

What do you think?

Was Jesus a liberal?

Why or why not? Please folks, documentation, not made-up bluster.

By the way, as background, I'm agnostic but I feel he was a heck of a moral person and a GREAT role model.

Jesus was a "communist".....lay down your possesions and follow me........love your neighbor as you love yourself.....whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me....

Oh...and another thing. YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IN GOD AND BE A COMMUNIST. Suggested reading for this topic is "The Communist Manifesto", "Das Kapital", "The Intelligent Woman's Guide to Socialism" and I get can get you a number of others. You can read Lenin's "Collected Works". Let me explain this and make it perfectly clear; the essential tenet of communisim is THAT THERE IS NO GOD. You can try to disagree, I really don't care what your response is unless you are going to quote the founders of Marxism and Fabianism extolling the virtues of God. Otherwise, to follow their theories is to accept their tenets. You are a communist? Fine, you are also an athiest. You can't be one without the other.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)

Post #: 80

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