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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:47:27 PM   
lockedaway


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I defer...that is true.  An olive can make all the difference!  Salut!

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:50:53 PM   
lockedaway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

OK, so you're completely full of shit on your assertion that communists can't believe in god, you can't figure out how to use the quote function, and you repeatedly get my gender wrong. All while ridiculing my lack of intellect.

Got it. Yu be d genyus, and we all be dumbiees.



Panda...I don't CARE what your gender is.  You say stupid things, you are ill read on the subject and you contribute NOTHING.  If what I say about communism is incorrect, site me to the founders/proponents of the political theory that say otherwise.  It is THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.  You want to make an ad hominem attack because you have nothing else at your disposal.  Your gender?  After reading the things you say I'm gonna say you are some kind of gender neutral....hamster.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 4/13/2011 5:15:58 PM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 5:25:10 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

OK, so you're completely full of shit on your assertion that communists can't believe in god, you can't figure out how to use the quote function, and you repeatedly get my gender wrong. All while ridiculing my lack of intellect.

Got it. Yu be d genyus, and we all be dumbiees.



Panda...I don't CARE what your gender is.  You say stupid things, you are ill read on the subject and you contribute NOTHING.  If what I say about communism is incorrect, site me to the founders/proponents of the political theory that say otherwise.  It is THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.  You want to make an ad hominem attack but you have nothing else at your disposal.  Your gender?  After reading the things you say I'm gonna say you are some kind of gender neutral....hamster.


"Site" you? Do you mean you want me to throw you a link, or find you a new home? Ah, well. At least you got the quote function figured out. Good job!

It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that you have absolutely no clue what the fuck you're talking about. You conservatives are always pulling this shit - making stuff up, or asserting "facts" that just a ren't true, and then when someone who actually attended high school points out that you don't know what you're talking about, you start crying about "personal attacks." Jesus. Grow  the fuck up.

As for your question, all I can say is that if you're really this ignorant about a subject, maybe you should do a little googling of your own before you shoot your mouth off about it. Just off the top of my  head, google a guy named Frederick Hastings Smyth, and then google the term "christian communists." I also dug up the link for the Society of the Catholic Commonwealth, whose website is http://www.anglocatholicsocialism.org/smyth.html#Intro. Or are you going to tell me that a group calling themselves Anglo-Catholic socialists don't qualify as christian communists?

If you don't know what you're talking about, you can save yourself a lot of embarrassment by either keeping your mouth shut, or by making your points without insulting and ridiculing the people with whom you disagree. That tends to irritate people, and tempts them into going out of their way to ridicule you right back. Just sayin'.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 5:46:59 PM   
lockedaway


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Ohhhh great!  You site me to one ding-bat priest that has since been discredited by his faith.  Thanks, that addresses everything I said about Marx and Engles and Traska, Shaw and the others.  What IDIOCY.  Hey genius, rather than look for needles in haystacks, why don't you actually address the things I said about communism? 

Here are some words from your off-the-reservation-man Smythe:

"At the same time we must guard against the false notion that any alteration in a presently non-Christian economic or political structure, however radical or however desirable from a Christian (or even a humanist) point of view, will of itself alone induce Christian motivations of social behavior. these can be induced only as, and in so far as, people become converted to the Religion of the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ and participate in the Sacramental Life of the Catholic Church."

Now...tell me ANYTHING, ANYWHERE that was written by the founders of the MOST EVIL political doctrine ever devised that agrees with Smythe.  Can you do that?  Show us your vast mental prowess!!  One radical priest negates NOTHING I have said.

The question raised by reading Smythe was whether he was actually a communist or whether he was using communism to evangelize.  Everything he spoke about involved Christian motivations.

Here...here is a paraphrase from Shaw's "Intelligent Woman's Guide to Socialism".  I can bring the book in tomorrow and give the actual quote but this is damned close:

"Of course there would be economic equality and there would be no poverty.  Poverty would not be allowed by law.  People would be forcibly [emphasis supplied] fed, forcibly clothed and forcibly educated.  And if that person's character proved unworthy of all of this effort, they may be put to death in some kindly manner."

--George Bernard Shaw on the system he wanted to see derived from Das Kapital.

The United States fought communism where ever we found it.  We have since grown exceptionally weak on that subject and the entire world is going to pay the price.   

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 6:07:54 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Well, that was predictable. I figured it was going to be one of three things - either "they're not really communists," "they're not really christians," or "that's not the kind of communist I meant."

You claimed that it is "impossible to believe in communism and believe in god at  the same  time."

I told you that was bullshit.

You challenged me to find proponents of communism who believed in god.

I found some.

You start whining about how they don't count.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you lack the balls to admit  it, and you just make yourself look even more ignorant, more cowardly, and more intellectually dishonest with every post. But by all means, do keep it up. I'm having the time of my life.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 6:16:30 PM   
lockedaway


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Perfect...so stupid that you can't address anything I said in my prior post.  Too weak and flacid to even give it a try.  You came up with a radical priest who is not a communist by definition, Einstein.  You are having the time of your life?  I didn't know anyone could get such a thrill out of being dumb. 

You talk about intellectual cowardice?  Answer my posts.  Can you do that?  Tell me what Marx or Shaw or Stalin or Lenin said about Jesus Christ.  Tell me what the founders of communism said about the eternal nature of the soul rather than spouting off your eternal ignorance. 

Jesus, panda, where did you go to school?  "I-Don't-Know-How-To-Debate University"?   I know, you got a full boat scholarship to "Zero Research Community College"!  LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL  good night, panda.  

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 4/13/2011 6:21:01 PM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 6:26:21 PM   
outhere69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69
The following is is an excerpt from another site...

Personally, I would not be inclined to bet the farm on a Christian exegesis of the Hebrew scriptures, or to rely on a site devoted to providing "resources for growing Christians" for my information about Rabbinical thought and Judaism.

Just sayin.

K.


It matches up with additional material that I have but didn't want to take the time to transcribe.

Oops, I forgot.  There is "Marxist/Leninist/etc." communism, which you're fixed on, locked, but as pointed out there are religious communities that lived exactly as communists (centralized control of resources, central committees, raising children separately from parents, all getting the same food, clothing, etc.) but they believed in God.  Like the Shakers.  Those folks even blended communism with capitalism, since there were a few members that marketed their furniture, crops, stock, crafts, etc. for the common community.

Communism ain't just a recent invention.


< Message edited by outhere69 -- 4/13/2011 6:41:23 PM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 6:42:58 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
You talk about intellectual cowardice?  Answer my posts.  Can you do that?  Tell me what Marx or Shaw or Stalin or Lenin said about Jesus Christ.  Tell me what the founders of communism said about the eternal nature of the soul rather than spouting off your eternal ignorance. 


Who gives a shit? You're changing the subject. You originally said that "it's impossible to believe in communism and believe in god at the same time," and now you're trying to prove your point by demanding that I prove to you that Marx or Lenin believed in god. Like i said, you make yourself look worse with every post. By the middle of the next page, I expect to see you somehow posting with fingerpaint.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 7:17:20 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

His Hebrew faith (see post 68 above) does.


Nothing in that strawman, er, I mean post, or in the teachings of Jesus, suggests that the state has the right to take property from Paul, by force, and giving it to Peter.

trucker. What he posted is the LAW during the time of Jesus (ca 2100 years ago in Judea)

If you wish to refute it, enlist a Rabbi.

You are ignorant of Rabbinical law.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:03:01 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

You are a communist?  Fine, you are also an athiest.  You can't be one without the other.



Really?

So........if you're an atheist you are also a communist?

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:24:19 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

A central and secular government would be as much a form of idolotry to Christ as the whole "blood and soil" argument advanced by the Nazis and severely disdained by Pope Pious XII. 


You mean the same Pope Pius XII that ignored Nazi atrocities?


Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust


Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.

In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing.

Within the Pope's own church, Cardinal Theodor Innitzer of Vienna told Pius XII about Jewish deportations in 1941. In 1942, the Slovakian charge d'affaires, a position under the supervision of the Pope, reported to Rome that Slovakian Jews were being systematically deported and sent to death camps.

In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain "neutral," and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 4/13/2011 8:49:11 PM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:34:23 PM   
dcnovice


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Pius XII and the Holocaust is a complex subject, too much for a simple hijack.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 8:51:37 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Pius XII and the Holocaust is a complex subject, too much for a simple hijack.


I didn't bring him up, I just responded to it.

And no, it's not really all that complex.

The best you can say about the Pope is his actions were timid, and that's really, really giving him benefit of the doubt.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 4/13/2011 9:01:38 PM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/14/2011 5:26:42 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

His Hebrew faith (see post 68 above) does.


Nothing in that strawman, er, I mean post, or in the teachings of Jesus, suggests that the state has the right to take property from Paul, by force, and giving it to Peter.

I didnt say that Jesus claimed that. Who is strawmanning now?

What I SAID is that the LAW of his time and his faith, he was a Jew you know, demands that the wealthier support the poorer.

Those who refused to do so had it forcibly taken from them.

That was Hebrew law at the time and, as Jesus was a devout Jew, It could be assumed he followed it.

Once again so there is no confusion. I never said that Jesus taught that. I said it was the law of Judea at that time which he presumably followed.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/14/2011 12:41:23 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.



There is some truth in this.

Marxism reduces human affairs to an economic and material struggle, where man is at the centre of a universe defined by a conflict of human constructed systems. There is little room for intuition, imagination, feeling and metaphyiscal quandries.

Having said this, a person could adhere to Marxism while believing in God, although you could argue that such a person has a sub-standard grasp of Marxism.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/14/2011 2:13:12 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You mean the same Pope Pius XII that ignored Nazi atrocities?



Forgive me, but I think I'll go with Einstein on this one.

Einstein, who barely escaped the Nazis, had not been a friend of the Church, but was moved by what it did under Pius. "Only the Church,” said Einstein, “stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth... I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel great affection and admiration... and am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

“Pope Pius XII probably rescued more Jews than all the Allies combined,” wrote Jewish writers John Loftus and Mark Aarons in their book “The Secret War Against the Jews.”

Books like John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope" accused Pius of not being specific enough in attacking German actions. He had denounced the Nazis dozens of times in the 1920s and '30s, and when he was elected Pope in 1939, one leading Nazi newspaper expressed its anger "because he was always opposed to Nazism.” In his 1942 Christmas message, Pius XII denounced the Nazis' increasing killings and persecution of the “hundreds of thousands who without any fault of their own, sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or progressive extinction."

What he stopped doing was naming the Jews specifically, after it became clear that doing so was getting people killed. The Dutch Roman Catholic hierarchy named the Jews explicitly in 1943 in their condemnation of Nazi deportations: the Nazis responded with an all-out offensive against Jews, killing 40,000. Pius quickly cancelled a similar message: "If the protest of the Dutch Bishops has cost the lives of 40,000 people, my intervention would take at least 200,000 people to their deaths.”

But he ordered his bishops and priests to do even more, providing false birth certificates, religious disguises, and safe keeping in cloistered monasteries and convents, which kept hundreds of thousands of Jews from being shipped to Nazi death camps.

After the war, the government of Israel estimated the total number saved by Pius at 800,000 Jewish lives. A former Israeli diplomat in Italy testified that: "The Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives during the war than all the other Churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations put together. Its record stands in startling contrast to the achievements of the International Red Cross and the Western Democracies."

Emilio Zolli. the chief rabbi in Rome during the German occupation, said "no hero in all of history was more militant, more fought against, none more heroic, than Pius XII." Zolli was so moved by Pius XII’s actions that he became a Catholic.

Pius did it at a time when the Allied governments were silent about the fate of the Jews, and shockingly unhelpful when refugees turned up at their doors. The U.S. government, for example, accepted only of 10,000 to 15,000 Jewish refugees during the war.

And what of John Cornwell, who wrote "Hitler's Pope"? Independent critics lambasted the book for "errors of fact and ignorance of context...on almost every page." Cornwell himself recanted, ten years later, admitting his book lacked balance.

And my apologies to Hillwilliam for answering the wee hijack.  It's a good thread, and the Beatitudes (the sermon on the mount) doesn't sound like anything you'd hear at a Tea Party rally.


< Message edited by mcbride -- 4/14/2011 2:18:59 PM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/15/2011 7:02:04 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Godlessness is as essential to Capitalism, as it is essential to Communism (although the first Christians practiced a form of proto-communism - read the Book of Acts in the New Testament of the Bible. It fell apart because humans, even the earliest Christians, are inherently selfish).

Two of the most important tenants of Capitalism are:

(1) Survival of the fittest (also known as Social Darwinism), and

(2) Individual selfishness will solve all problems.

Neither (1) or (2) are Christian principles or, to my knowledge, principles found in any other religion practiced openly on Earth. (Most people who worship money and wealth do it privately.)

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/15/2011 9:16:01 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Godlessness is as essential to Capitalism...

Both capitalism and democracy are a prescription for disaster, absent virtue (as is probably any economic system or form of government). But if you are trying to make a case for virtue being impossible without religion, I'm sure you will get the responses you deserve.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/15/2011 9:17:18 AM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/15/2011 9:20:14 AM   
Hillwilliam


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I think virtue is VERY possible without religion. I know a LOT of atheists and agnostic folk that I would trust with any amount of $ or property.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/15/2011 9:23:35 AM   
LaTigresse


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Given our last president and those like him........I would rather have an atheist or agnostic.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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