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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:47:51 AM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		The fact that communism disavows God.....does not preclude Jesus from having communistic tendencies.I have seen you use this argument here a number of times.The logic at work is suspect at best....it seems to work like this ...Communists don't like god,therefore Jesus could not have been a communist ,That is flawed logic to the extreme....In addition,and correct me if I am wrong,but hasn't every Communist revolution to date sort of eaten their own upon successful fulfillment of said revolution ?



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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:49:56 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

he was a heck of a moral person


Which is why he never intimated that any individual had any right to the property or services of another.

His Hebrew faith (see post 68 above) does. There is even mentioned an explicit 'redistribution of wealth' according to the law of the day.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:56:09 AM   
lockedaway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

The fact that communism disavows God.....does not preclude Jesus from having communistic tendencies.I have seen you use this argument here a number of times.The logic at work is suspect at best....it seems to work like this ...Communists don't like god,therefore Jesus could not have been a communist ,That is flawed logic to the extreme....In addition,and correct me if I am wrong,but hasn't every Communist revolution to date sort of eaten their own upon successful fulfillment of said revolution ?




You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.  That Christ promoted charity has NOTHING to do with communism.  Christ never espoused a level of giving that was enforced by a central government.  I have said this before and will repeat it here because the liberals on this site just can't seem to grasp it.  Charity is only charity (or philanthropy) when it is voluntarily given....not when it is confiscated from you.  When it is confiscated from you, it abrogates the very cornerstone of what makes man....man; free will.  To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities was never espoused by Christ in any part of the bible.  A central and secular government would be as much a form of idolotry to Christ as the whole "blood and soil" argument advanced by the Nazis and severely disdained by Pope Pious XII. 

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 4/13/2011 10:00:01 AM >

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 9:57:25 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Another reason why the question is unanswerable is the changing definitions of terms like liberal and conservative. The American Founding Fathers, by today’s standards, were quite conservative; but by the standards of their day they were liberal, even radical.




Dang it, marc, you're jumping the gun on the next topic I have worked up for after this one burns out

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 11:32:44 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

This hits politics AND religion.

What do you think?

Was Jesus a liberal?

Why or why not? Please folks, documentation, not made-up bluster.

By the way, as background, I'm agnostic but I feel he was a heck of a moral person and a GREAT role model.



The essence of Liberalism is non-conformism and the abstract notion of a stake in happiness, so it's fairly clear cut.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 11:42:25 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

The fact that communism disavows God.....does not preclude Jesus from having communistic tendencies.I have seen you use this argument here a number of times.The logic at work is suspect at best....it seems to work like this ...Communists don't like god,therefore Jesus could not have been a communist ,That is flawed logic to the extreme....In addition,and correct me if I am wrong,but hasn't every Communist revolution to date sort of eaten their own upon successful fulfillment of said revolution ?




You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.  That Christ promoted charity has NOTHING to do with communism.  Christ never espoused a level of giving that was enforced by a central government.  I have said this before and will repeat it here because the liberals on this site just can't seem to grasp it.  Charity is only charity (or philanthropy) when it is voluntarily given....not when it is confiscated from you.  When it is confiscated from you, it abrogates the very cornerstone of what makes man....man; free will.  To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities was never espoused by Christ in any part of the bible.  A central and secular government would be as much a form of idolotry to Christ as the whole "blood and soil" argument advanced by the Nazis and severely disdained by Pope Pious XII. 

I'm going to disagree with you locked. Look at the way religious orders live. (nuns and monks). Each does the job they are most capable of doing whether it be teaching, nursing, caring for the grounds, the ministry or whatever. Each member also has a right to take from the communal pot for their needs. That sounds a LOT like "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".

Are you going to say they are not religious or that that lifestyle is not like a commune?

Just because the communism of Marx and Mao and Kim and Castro is atheist doesnt mean ALL communism has to be atheist.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 12:03:05 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline 		Liberal. This is cut and pasted from my post on another thread


..............................Jesus was a rebel. He was challenging the status quo. He was challenging ritual vs true faith. To be pious then, it was separating oneself from the unclean goyim. He went among the outsiders to teach his message (Tax collectors, women of ill repute). When questioned about teaching outside the temple, his reply was he was going to where the sick in spirit were.

Rebel all the way.



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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 12:21:09 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

you are confusing terms again. try google...then come back


No I am not. Communism and Facism are the same thing. Both are authoritarin, both deny freedom to the victims living under it, both have engaged in mass murder... About the only difference between the two is who is assigned the role of scapegoat.

When you are being lined up against a wall to be shot, does it really matter what slogan is being shouted at you to "justify" your murder at the hands of power hungry despots?



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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 12:56:15 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Jesus was a libertarian. Obviously.

He told that charity and such were good, but he didn't force you to it, that's what liberals do.

He was for peace, and neither liberals or neocons are for that.

I'm surprised there is even a debate!

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 12:59:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


I'm surprised there is even a debate!



I'm just trying to make people think for once instead of regurgitating whatever their favorite media personality tells them to say.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 1:57:56 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

The fact that communism disavows God.....does not preclude Jesus from having communistic tendencies.I have seen you use this argument here a number of times.The logic at work is suspect at best....it seems to work like this ...Communists don't like god,therefore Jesus could not have been a communist ,That is flawed logic to the extreme....In addition,and correct me if I am wrong,but hasn't every Communist revolution to date sort of eaten their own upon successful fulfillment of said revolution ?




You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.  That Christ promoted charity has NOTHING to do with communism.  Christ never espoused a level of giving that was enforced by a central government.  I have said this before and will repeat it here because the liberals on this site just can't seem to grasp it.  Charity is only charity (or philanthropy) when it is voluntarily given....not when it is confiscated from you.  When it is confiscated from you, it abrogates the very cornerstone of what makes man....man; free will.  To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities was never espoused by Christ in any part of the bible.  A central and secular government would be as much a form of idolotry to Christ as the whole "blood and soil" argument advanced by the Nazis and severely disdained by Pope Pious XII. 

I'm going to disagree with you locked. Look at the way religious orders live. (nuns and monks). Each does the job they are most capable of doing whether it be teaching, nursing, caring for the grounds, the ministry or whatever. Each member also has a right to take from the communal pot for their needs. That sounds a LOT like "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".

Are you going to say they are not religious or that that lifestyle is not like a commune?

Just because the communism of Marx and Mao and Kim and Castro is atheist doesnt mean ALL communism has to be atheist.


I agree with you that many religious orders live together in a commune.  But communal living is NOT communism.  You have to understand that communism has certain, basic precepts.  One precept is that communism and capitalism cannot co-exist and that one system must conquer the other.  I can site you to Marx, Engles, the Webbs, Shaw, Lenin, Stalin, Traska and many, many others.  The second precept is that there is no God.  The third is that man has neither a conscience nor a soul so that man can do anything in furtherance of communism and it not morally wrong or a crime against man; it is merely an extension of the battle of communism versus capitalism.  THAT IS COMMUNISM.  Look, you want to live in a commune with your 30 best friends, share everything and have a prayer meeting giving thanks every night?  Go ahead!  But that is not communism...that is communal living.

The support and advancement of the political doctrine of communism has caused the death, starvation and wholesale slaughter of more than 100 million people since the Czars were overthrown.  It is the MOST oppressive, most Godless political system ever imagined.  Socialism is merely a pit stop on the way to communism.  Both communism and socialism are steadfastly opposed to liberty.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 2:34:19 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

His Hebrew faith (see post 68 above) does.


Nothing in that strawman, er, I mean post, or in the teachings of Jesus, suggests that the state has the right to take property from Paul, by force, and giving it to Peter.

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 2:36:08 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

That sounds a LOT like "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".


The modern exemplar of KMs teaching, above, is the "graduated income tax".

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 3:25:15 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.


That is just complete bullshit. Saves me the trouble of reading the rest of your post, though. If you have no clue what you're talking about, you're not worth talking to.


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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:13:53 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period. 



Having actually lived for some years in Eastern Europe and travelled extensively through this part of the world this is complete nonsense.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:18:35 PM   
lockedaway


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Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.


It is hard to argue with fools who know nothing about the subject matter.  I have come to expect this from you.  READ a little bit about communism and communist theory before spouting your garbage.  Communism is not my political theory.  The heart of the political theory is dialectic materialism...go google it, genius. 

That is just complete bullshit. Saves me the trouble of reading the rest of your post, though. If you have no clue what you're talking about, you're not worth talking to.


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:21:21 PM   
lockedaway


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Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period. 



Having actually lived for some years in Eastern Europe and travelled extensively through this part of the world this is complete nonsense.


Wow...talk about missing the point.  The fact that there are a great many people who believe in God in eastern europe (where I too have traveled extensively) does not mean that the politcal structure that was forced on those people promoted God, or was solicitous of the existence of God.  There were 10 million Ukranians that were purposefully starved to death by the Soviets and I'm sure a great many of them believed in God.

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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:32:21 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
You are incorrect. My argument is that you can't believe in communism and believe in God at the same time because a belief in God is antithetical to communism; period.


You know...I have to return to this because it is SO stupid that one post just doesn't quite cover it.  You can call yourself a Catholic but if you don't believe in the holy eucharist, you are not a  Catholic.  You are just some moron who calls themselves a Catholic.  Saying that you believe in communism when you don't believe in dialectic materialismT and that there is no God and that man has no soul and that all of man's actions are not merely a product of your socio-economic environment at the time and that capitalism and communism cannot co-exist MEANS YOU ARE NOT A FUCKING COMMUNIST.......GOT IT?

Jesus...it is like a martini without gin and some measure of vermouth is NOT A MARTINI.  If you make it with vodka, you can call it a vodka-tini all you like or a Apple Tini, etc. etc. etc.  but it isn't a Martini.

"That is just complete bullshit. Saves me the trouble of reading the rest of your post, though. If you have no clue what you're talking about, you're not worth talking to."

This stupidity from Panda is hard to countenance and she shouldn't make herself someone that needs to be "suffered".  "Communism" means something.  It is defined by terms and if you don't like the terms, that is your problem.  Marx, Engels, Shaw, Lenin, Stalin....all of the people who advanced this evil political theory did so with the understanding that there was no God and therefore there was no judgment for any of the atrocities they wrought upon the world.  Another essential tenet of communism is that anything you do (murder, rape, theft, brainwashing, etc.) that advances the vanquishing of capitalism by communism is justified. 


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RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:38:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Jesus...it is like a martini without gin and some measure of vermouth is NOT A MARTINI.

I have to dispute this. As long as an olive is present, there is absolutely no need for vermouth.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Was He a Liberal? - 4/13/2011 4:43:55 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		OK, so you're completely full of shit on your assertion that communists can't believe in god, you can't figure out how to use the quote function, and you repeatedly get my gender wrong. All while ridiculing my lack of intellect.

Got it. Yu be d genyus, and we all be dumbiees.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 100
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