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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 6:53:07 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

Drugs in Portugal are still illegal. But here’s what Portugal did: It changed the law so that users are sent to counseling and sometimes treatment instead of criminal courts and prison. The switch from drugs as a criminal issue to a public health one was aimed at preventing users from going underground.


That makes sense. Throwing them in jail isn't going to help anyone. It has taken some medical professionals too long to understand that addiction is a health issue. In fact I was just studying something similiar to this. 42 CFR Part 2 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=42:1.0.1.1.2&idno=42#42:1.0.1.1.2.1.1.3

"These regulations are not intended to direct the manner in which substantive functions such as research, treatment, and evaluation are carried out. They are intended to insure that an alcohol or drug abuse patient in a federally assisted alcohol or drug abuse program is not made more vulnerable by reason of the availability of his or her patient record than an individual who has an alcohol or drug problem and who does not seek treatment."

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 6:55:27 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
quote:

If you were living on an island and not affecting those around you, I would agree. But unfortunately the average addict lives his life in a drug induced fog and it's the innocent people around him that suffer the misery.
the suffering of others caused by an action is not relevant to one's right to take that action. it does enter into it when discussing the morality of such choices however, but as i have pointed out before, that is a different issue unrelated to one's rights as an individual.

hannah lynn


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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 7:36:46 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I'm still trying to figure out why someone would want to go into rehab if it wasn't illegal to get high. Why not just keep getting high?
Getting high come with costs ,above and beyond the legal.Looking into a mirror and seeing death is/can be disconcerting.
Trust me on this.



Yes, but would that be enough motivation. I've known a lot of addicts who have gone into treatment due to legal situations they have found themselves in. I can't honestly think of any who said they were quitting because they thought it would kill them. Now I have met many ex smokers who quit for health reasons, but there are a lot more out there who are still puffing away. Myself included. I know if crack could be compared to pot, legalizing pot would not make me want to stop smoking because I know it's bad for me. It would make me want to buy some acreage and start a farm. But that's just me

Yes,in some case it is enough.When you realize you are backing out of the shower rather than face the mirror....when you see the cost your slow suicide is taking on those around you.....you just might beg ,borrow and be more than willing to steal to get a bed in a rehab.....you will than probably do a hell of a lot better than those who have been coerced to attend ;-)
Again I will simply ask you to trust me on this...


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 8:36:13 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The link is in the post above this time. I had to google to find it. Your link to Portugal I did pull it, and immediately realized it was very similar to the one I posted to you... which if you had checked, you would have discovered.


My post came in at 12:26. Your post above, with the link, came in at 12:37. How, pray tell, was I supposed to check a link which did not yet exist? You had to google it yourself and it was your link! There is no way for me to have known what the link you originally provided pointed to because it was a dead link.





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"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 8:52:01 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I'm still trying to figure out why someone would want to go into rehab if it wasn't illegal to get high. Why not just keep getting high?

There's a legal heroin shooting gallery about 5 minutes walk from where I live. It's been operating for about 10 years now.

One of the more interesting things to emerge from the gallery experience has been this: At the gallery, injecting takes place in a clean sterile legal situation. Surprisingly, many addicts report that the 'experience' is diminished precisely because it's no longer illegal - that 'thrill' has vaporised. So part of the attraction of heroin to these people is its very illegality.

Large numbers of addicts have been diverted to detox and rehabs via the 'shooting gallery'. It has also dealt with over 3,000 overdoses without a single fatality. You can check out the 'shooting gallery' for yourself here if you like.

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 9:02:35 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Portugal


It seems like they are giving up the battle…to me it's a wash…here are some statistics I could find.

Overall heroin use cut in half

Cocaine use doubled

Synthetic drug use doubled

HIV infection down

Death from drug use up

Violent crime up

Murder up 40 percent

Added cost for treatment 84.5 million..20 mill from a lottery. Offsets incarceration costs

I am all for innovative ways of fighting drugs… this system just seems to hold the status quo. ..Doing no one any good but not making things worse…much

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/17/2011 9:13:49 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 9:51:21 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Portugal


It seems like they are giving up the battle…to me it's a wash…here are some statistics I could find.

Overall heroin use cut in half

Cocaine use doubled

Synthetic drug use doubled

HIV infection down

Death from drug use up

Violent crime up

Murder up 40 percent

Added cost for treatment 84.5 million..20 mill from a lottery. Offsets incarceration costs

I am all for innovative ways of fighting drugs… this system just seems to hold the status quo. ..Doing no one any good but not making things worse…much

Butch

The costs of drug prohibition policies are far greater than they might initially appear. We really need to include all those costs to get any kind of useful cost-benefit analysis.

There are costs of enforcement - police time and resources, Customs time and resources, costs of security/anti-drug measure and so on. How do we calculate the cost of drug-related corruption ? Should we ask Mexico?

Then there are the criminal justice systems costs - police and customs time, legal time and costs, incarceration time and costs (it's estimated that 80% of Australian prisoners are serving sentences for drug-related crime).

These are just a few of the costs of drug prohibition. There's an entire legal industry spawned on the back of drug prohibition and it's huge. (And of course, an entire illegal one too.) Resources that could be deployed elsewhere far more productively, I'm sure.

Leaving aside the spectacular expensive failure of drug prohibition approaches everywhere they've been tried, it seems to me far cheaper to approach this as a health or medical issue rather than a legal one. With far better outcomes for the dollars spent too.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/17/2011 9:53:00 PM >

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 10:09:32 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If they still pursue and arrest suppliers and pushers... and violent crime rises.... and murder rises... I don't see a real savings to law enforcement.

If one drug decreases but two increase...ever see the personal tragedy of a meth addiction?...I can't see where there is an advantage.

If more people are dieing... I can't see where it is solving a health issue.

How about yourself...am I looking at things wrong?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 10:17:27 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Because I posted the basics of the article in the OP of that thread.

It should have been self-explanatory. Not my fault you missed it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 10:36:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Portugal


It seems like they are giving up the battle…to me it's a wash…here are some statistics I could find.

Overall heroin use cut in half

Cocaine use doubled

Synthetic drug use doubled

HIV infection down

Death from drug use up

Violent crime up

Murder up 40 percent

Added cost for treatment 84.5 million..20 mill from a lottery. Offsets incarceration costs

I am all for innovative ways of fighting drugs… this system just seems to hold the status quo. ..Doing no one any good but not making things worse…much

Butch




At the same time, Portugal’s drug-mortality rate, among Europe’s lowest, has risen. Mr. Goulao says this is due in part to improved methods of collecting statistics, but the number of drug-related fatalities can also be traced to mortality among those who became addicted to heroin during the country’s 1980s and 1990s epidemic.

Violent crime, too, has risen since the law’s passage. According to a 2009 report by the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime, Portugal’s drug-use and murder rates rose in the years after decriminalization. The general rise in drug use was in keeping with European trends, but the U.N. noted with some alarm that cocaine use doubled and cocaine seizures jumped sevenfold from 2001 to 2006.

Murders rose 40% in the period. The report tentatively links that with drug trafficking, but points out overall murder rates in Portugal remain low.

http://www.encod.org/info/PORTUGAL-S-DRUG-LAWS-DRAW-NEW.html

So what you are saying is the decriminlization of drugs didnt make things "all better".

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/17/2011 11:34:42 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because I posted the basics of the article in the OP of that thread.


And I was supposed to know this.. how? By the broken link you provided? Shall I just assume your words are credible and accurate?

quote:

It should have been self-explanatory. Not my fault you missed it.


Of course it's your fault. You linked the thread.. the interior link was a broken link. Who's fault was it if not yours? My links were not broken. I didn't ask anyone to take me at my word. I don't make the assumption that I am credible, I prove it. Can you say the same? I guess with broken links, that becomes rhetorical so unless one is a time traveler, the issue is moot. I have asked you twice now to explain a post and twice you have not. As I said, our standards of useful, adult conversation are, obviously, different and I should have just gone with my gut. I'll correct that error now and keep it in mind for the future.

ETA: OP, I found your premise thought provoking.. so thank you for that and I do apologize for the brief high-jack. It's not my usual MO.

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 4/17/2011 11:40:57 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 1:51:27 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I'm still trying to figure out why someone would want to go into rehab if it wasn't illegal to get high. Why not just keep getting high?
Getting high come with costs ,above and beyond the legal.Looking into a mirror and seeing death is/can be disconcerting.
Trust me on this.



Yes, but would that be enough motivation. I've known a lot of addicts who have gone into treatment due to legal situations they have found themselves in. I can't honestly think of any who said they were quitting because they thought it would kill them. Now I have met many ex smokers who quit for health reasons, but there are a lot more out there who are still puffing away. Myself included. I know if crack could be compared to pot, legalizing pot would not make me want to stop smoking because I know it's bad for me. It would make me want to buy some acreage and start a farm. But that's just me

Yes,in some case it is enough.When you realize you are backing out of the shower rather than face the mirror....when you see the cost your slow suicide is taking on those around you.....you just might beg ,borrow and be more than willing to steal to get a bed in a rehab.....you will than probably do a hell of a lot better than those who have been coerced to attend ;-)
Again I will simply ask you to trust me on this...

No, sorry, no way will I "trust you on this". How you choose to deal with your encounters with psychoactive substances is your problem, not mine. You do not have the right to restrict my use of psychoactives simply because you have mental issues which preclude you from using psychoactives responsibly.

The solution is quite simple. If you cannot use responsibly, don't use.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 1:55:31 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If they still pursue and arrest suppliers and pushers... and violent crime rises.... and murder rises... I don't see a real savings to law enforcement.

If one drug decreases but two increase...ever see the personal tragedy of a meth addiction?...I can't see where there is an advantage.

If more people are dieing... I can't see where it is solving a health issue.

How about yourself...am I looking at things wrong?

Butch

It seems to me that the first thing to decide if current policies are working or not. And the answer to that seems unequivocally negative. Nor does it seem to matter how draconian we make prohibition models. Many SE Asian countries have used the death penalty for serious drug offences for decades without any noticeable gains.

It seems important to be clear about we consider success in this area to be. Does success mean getting drug users off the streets? Or being self sufficient and responsible? Or stopping the supply of drugs? Or the demand for drugs? Or reducing the crime rate? Are our goals focussed on moral, health or legal issues? Is education on drugs to inform demand more likely to produce desirable outcomes than punitive approaches? Are our goals feasible? Will the policies available generate solutions or revenge? Reformed people or permanently medicated zombies?

Establishing which particular model is best for a given location may require experimentation and could end up varying considerably. Access to clean free/cheap heroin in clean controlled environments seems to be successful. It's not clear to me that there are any ongoing social gains in maintaining prohibitions on marijuana, while there is a considerable downside.

Holland, Switzerland and Portugal have all tried differing approaches. It seems like a good idea to examine the outcomes there, as well as any other country/place that has tried alternative models. I can report that the 'shooting gallery' here has been an unqualified success. Residents, the police, drug takers, the media, bureaucrats, politicians and experts in the Drug & Alcohol area are virtually unanimous about that.

Among professionals and experts in the area of addiction, there seems to be a universal trend away from prohibition/total abstinence models towards more relaxed health focussed 'harm minimisation' models.

When we are clear about our goals, then the policy options might well decide themselves. What, then, does success mean to us?


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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 2:02:19 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

yes drugs do cause enormous misery, but that isn't the issue. if i chose to live a life of fleeting moments of drug-induced euphoria amidst squalor and misery, surely that is my business and nobody else's.


If you were living on an island and not affecting those around you, I would agree. But unfortunately the average addict lives his life in a drug induced fog and it's the innocent people around him that suffer the misery.


You have quite succinctly explained "conservatism".

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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Profile   Post #: 294
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 3:52:18 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

you will than probably do a hell of a lot better than those who have been coerced to attend


I would go much farther than probably on that one. You can't make someone want to quit and if they don't want it, it's not going to happen. At least not for any length of time.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 295
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 5:06:03 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

you will than probably do a hell of a lot better than those who have been coerced to attend


I would go much farther than probably on that one. You can't make someone want to quit and if they don't want it, it's not going to happen. At least not for any length of time.



Yes. Everyone I have spoken to in the area confirms your point. And everything I have read on the subject (which isn't as much as it sounds) confirms your point too.

People can't be forced to quit. They only succeed when they choose to quit and they choose to succeed at quitting. And even then it still takes a monumental effort.


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RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 6:37:52 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

And I was supposed to know this.. how? By the broken link you provided? Shall I just assume your words are credible and accurate?


Grow up and get over the broken link already. That thread is from December. News sites often move articles after a few months to archives.

quote:

Of course it's your fault. You linked the thread.. the interior link was a broken link. Who's fault was it if not yours? My links were not broken. I didn't ask anyone to take me at my word. I don't make the assumption that I am credible, I prove it. Can you say the same? I guess with broken links, that becomes rhetorical so unless one is a time traveler, the issue is moot. I have asked you twice now to explain a post and twice you have not. As I said, our standards of useful, adult conversation are, obviously, different and I should have just gone with my gut. I'll correct that error now and keep it in mind for the future.


SINCE you dont read links, wtf are you whining about? Not a single person on that thread called that link into question.

Give it three to six months and your links will be broken.

As far as my credibility, I do believe I have proven it time and time again. I always back up my sources. I dont expect anyone to take my word for anything. I also admitted that link was broken, and offered a replacement of the exact same article.

I didnt post the link for you to go ape shit over a link that did work, and now doesnt. I posted that link to the collarme thread to show you that you arent the only one who knows about Portugal or their attempts.

You got busted, you are pissy, now you are whining

Again, get the fuck over it.

quote:

ETA: OP, I found your premise thought provoking.. so thank you for that and I do apologize for the brief high-jack. It's not my usual MO.


Its not?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 4/18/2011 6:54:12 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 7:33:42 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

It seems important to be clear about we consider success in this area


The goal should only be to stop harmful drug use period...in this the programs are failures. Just not putting people in jail and giving them treatment that is not working is not an answer...It is sweeping the problem under the rug.... Like paying off a problem to leave the good citizens alone.

I like the idea of mandatory treatment but don't we have that here in the US for first offenders?

I still think education is the best defense.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 7:49:36 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I still think education is the best defense.


This generation coming up has the best information at their fingertips, literally.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants wi... - 4/18/2011 8:02:43 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I'm still trying to figure out why someone would want to go into rehab if it wasn't illegal to get high. Why not just keep getting high?
Getting high come with costs ,above and beyond the legal.Looking into a mirror and seeing death is/can be disconcerting.
Trust me on this.



Yes, but would that be enough motivation. I've known a lot of addicts who have gone into treatment due to legal situations they have found themselves in. I can't honestly think of any who said they were quitting because they thought it would kill them. Now I have met many ex smokers who quit for health reasons, but there are a lot more out there who are still puffing away. Myself included. I know if crack could be compared to pot, legalizing pot would not make me want to stop smoking because I know it's bad for me. It would make me want to buy some acreage and start a farm. But that's just me

Yes,in some case it is enough.When you realize you are backing out of the shower rather than face the mirror....when you see the cost your slow suicide is taking on those around you.....you just might beg ,borrow and be more than willing to steal to get a bed in a rehab.....you will than probably do a hell of a lot better than those who have been coerced to attend ;-)
Again I will simply ask you to trust me on this...

No, sorry, no way will I "trust you on this". How you choose to deal with your encounters with psychoactive substances is your problem, not mine. You do not have the right to restrict my use of psychoactives simply because you have mental issues which preclude you from using psychoactives responsibly.

The solution is quite simple. If you cannot use responsibly, don't use.

What the fuck Hippie,anything in there,anything at all that in any way seeks to restrict your use of whatever the fuck you want to use?
Anything at all that suggests you can not trust me in the telling of a personal history?
You are correct,how I chose to deal with them is/was my own fucking choice....but that does not preclude me from using those experiences to inform a debate on the issue.
Now from past posts I do know you are bright enough to see that.....
Let me go further,had the OP not started,and deliberately so IMO,with such a preposterous proposition(legalizing Crack) I would probably have come down on her side in this argument.....for I feel most drugs should and could be legalized.Crack does not fall into that category....Crack is not per se a drug...it is a bastardization of a drug,namely Cocaine...and intended,deliberately intended to addict the user in record times.
By the way....as far as I know I have no mental issues....other than a strange compulsion to respond to idiotic posts wherein the poster doesn not have the faintest fucking clue as to what they are talking about.



_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 300
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