RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it

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Politesub53 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 4:31:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne you have a parliamentary monarchy that the queen can abolish anytime she wants. if you believe I am incorrect show me the stip. Ive shown you this many times but you are too dense, or simply refuse, to understand it. Lets do it the other way though, why dont you back up your ludicrous assertions for a change ?

PeonForHer -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 4:41:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne you have a parliamentary monarchy that the queen can abolish anytime she wants. if you believe I am incorrect show me the stip. Ive shown you this many times but you are too dense, or simply refuse, to understand it. Lets do it the other way though, why dont you back up your ludicrous assertions for a change ? LOL, chuckle, chortle. I've really missed this P and R forum.

Politesub53 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 4:44:50 PM)
I know I know Peon. I should just ignore his nonsense.

Real0ne -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 4:46:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne you have a parliamentary monarchy that the queen can abolish anytime she wants. if you believe I am incorrect show me the stip. Ive shown you this many times but you are too dense, or simply refuse, to understand it. Lets do it the other way though, why dont you back up your ludicrous assertions for a change ? ok so there is nothing in law to prevent ole queenie from completely abolishing your government! and to top it all off you want me to prove it does not exist. now that is funnier than funny! here is the invisible paper that does not exist LOL for fuck sake. if you got a stip post it or concede, I say nothing exists.

Politesub53 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 4:49:47 PM)
Yawnssssss.... Read what i said.......I have shown you already, I wont do so again. Apologises to others for going off topic.

PeonForHer -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 4:54:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent To me, human nature is essentially characterised by constructive co-operation: for every minute there's a war, there are a thousand minutes of peace, whether that be international relations or home life. Exactly. This is one of those sorts of subjects in which people routinely focus on the periphery of the body of evidence rather than the core of it. It's a bit like that phenomenon we often see when, for instance, a married man who's bonked women all his life, has ten children - is discovered to have a gay porno mag in his stash. The fact of his hetero bonking, his marriage to a woman, and his ten children, suddenly don't matter. He has a gay porno mag - so he just must be gay, and that's that. Humans routinely cooperate. They're routinely social and law-abiding. They routinely try to get on with each other. If that weren't the case, amongst other things, this forum wouldn't exist, nor the website, nor even the Internet. They're not routinely violent to one another - not to anything like the same degree as they're peaceful with one another. Jeez, folks. Don't ignore the boringly obvious, just because it's boringly obvious. Compared to any other species on the planet, we humans are a bunch of contented, laid-back slobs who, despite there being so many of us, with all our destructive powers, still, as a species generally manage to live most of our lives without fear of impending violence nor with the intention of inflicting violence.

PeonForHer -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 5:15:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne ok so there is nothing in law to prevent ole queenie from completely abolishing your government! and to top it all off you want me to prove it does not exist. now that is funnier than funny! here is the invisible paper that does not exist LOL for fuck sake. if you got a stip post it or concede, I say nothing exists. Real, it just doesn't work like that here. The 'British Constitution' is nothing more than a body of conventions - of habits. It isn't based on the written rule of any overarching law. It predates the idea that 'what's written is the ultimate law'. Jeez, I didn't practise my archery last week. That law's never been rescinded. I could be had up in court for that . . . . The monarchy can only exist here so long as it toes the line. If it ever tried to push an issue as big as this, it'd just be dissolved. The institution of the monarchy only retains whatever respect it has because it never actually tries to do anything. You need to get to grips with the British culture - it's built on this kind of weird, irrational, brainless drivel, rooted in some centuries-old and utterly defunct idea of how a society works. The 'British Constitution' is the world's greatest, silliest, and best-loved pantomime. You've got to see it for what it is. Don't look for reason in it - you'll be searching forever.

gungadin09 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 5:16:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Peace is what we strive for every day; aggression is a defensive mechanism utilised when our peace is disturbed? i don't know. i think that peace gets disturbed a lot, and the fact that it's disturbed at all means that aggression is not solely a defensive mechanism. It would be an exaggeration to say that violence and bloodshed is a daily routine for most people, but i think it's just as much of an exaggeration to say that human beings strive for peace on a daily basis. i think it would be much more accurate to say that on a daily basis people balance their inborn need for aggression against their inborn need for peace. pam

NorthernGent -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 5:22:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Peace is what we strive for every day; aggression is a defensive mechanism utilised when our peace is disturbed? i don't know. i think that peace gets disturbed a lot, and the fact that it's disturbed at all means that aggression is not solely a defensive mechanism. It would be an exaggeration to say that violence and bloodshed is a daily routine for most people, but i think it's just as much of an exaggeration to say that human beings strive for peace on a daily basis. pam Yes, you have a point in that aggression is probably more than a defensive mechanism. Still, most of us live in a state of peace.

Real0ne -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 5:50:11 PM)
yeh in the court of your mind you did LOL

gungadin09 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 5:52:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Yes, you have a point in that aggression is probably more than a defensive mechanism. Still, most of us live in a state of peace. Depends on what you mean by "peace". If you mean, not killing other people with our own hands, then, yes, we normally live in a state of peace. If you mean, not perpetrating harm against others, well then i'm not sure that we really live in peace, or that it's even possible to do so. unless i'm strictly vegetarian unless i've never consumed a comodity that was produced by unethical means unless i live in a country protected by a military that has never done anything wrong unless i've never done anything that adversely affected another person unless i've never profited off someone else's misforture unless i am a completely nice person all of the time ...then i live my life in a state of aggression as well as peace. (And i do.) There are plenty of really good things about human nature. Altruism is one of them. Having a concept of morality and sin is another. But aggression is also a trait that characterises human nature, and i think it always will. pam

Real0ne -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 5:58:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne ok so there is nothing in law to prevent ole queenie from completely abolishing your government! and to top it all off you want me to prove it does not exist. now that is funnier than funny! here is the invisible paper that does not exist LOL for fuck sake. if you got a stip post it or concede, I say nothing exists. Real, it just doesn't work like that here. The 'British Constitution' is nothing more than a body of conventions - of habits. I know, the only thing with any real muster is the magna charta. It isn't based on the written rule of any overarching law. It predates the idea that 'what's written is the ultimate law'. No the common law predates event that.... you are going off of william. Jeez, I didn't practise my archery last week. That law's never been rescinded. I could be had up in court for that . . . . yes if it has never been repealed then you could that is bang on. The monarchy can only exist here so long as it toes the line. If it ever tried to push an issue as big as this, it'd just be dissolved. The institution of the monarchy only retains whatever respect it has because it never actually tries to do anything. But it does do all the time. Its nature is not with gun any more. that is not how you control a nation. you do it with propaganda and use the boiling the frog doctrine. you have cameras all over the place watching every move you make. just because you are out in th epublic does not mean your life is public. you people have more rights than we do if you know how to get them. You need to get to grips with the British culture - it's built on this kind of weird, irrational, brainless drivel, rooted in some centuries-old and utterly defunct idea of how a society works. The 'British Constitution' is the world's greatest, silliest, and best-loved pantomime. You've got to see it for what it is. Don't look for reason in it - you'll be searching forever. well thats like saying gwbushco was an idiot and the opposite is reality. people allowed what happened because they thought he was dumb that made it tolerable. LOL (but not to me!)

Real0ne -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 6:00:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Yes, you have a point in that aggression is probably more than a defensive mechanism. Still, most of us live in a state of peace. quote: Hermann Goering's Quote On War And The People "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials policy = politics btw

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 6:32:17 PM)
quote: Man is a social animal. Human infants begin their lives in a social environment, arguably even before they are born, and fail to thrive in conditions where social interaction is lacking even if they are fed. You cannot separate our "human" nature from our "social" nature. Human nature is social. K.[/font][/size] Let’s separate Nurture from Nature and throw out the baby for the moment. I take Nature to mean any inherited characteristics and/or behaviors. Especially those that preserve the gene pool. There may be some exceptions but it is pretty well agreed that phenotypes are favored because they promulgate the genome. During the dawn of our species the genome was preserved and shaped by successful human predators in hunter/gatherer environments. We can also surmise that early on some individuals cooperated and were even more successful in the hunt. So the trait for cooperation was passed along with the trait for aggression. As groups encountered each other they transformed individual competition into group competition. I said earlier in this tread that human nature includes greed, murder, rape, and tribalism. There is nothing conflicting or mutually exclusive about those inherited behaviors of aggression and cooperation as long as they contribute to the survival of the genome. Nor should it be shocking to contemplate. We witness the continuing brutal competition between tribes throughout the world and even within our own society. Just because we have socialized our behaviors does not mean we have extinguished inherited competition in all its forms. In fact we have refined the barbarism to forms of elegant electronic warfare. Granted, we have developed sports and video games and the financial markets as socially satisfactory competitive distractions but the essential inherited nature is still with us. Ask Gordon Gecko. [:)]

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 7:08:23 PM)
quote: Bear in mind that Hobbes lived in a time of religious and civil strife, and this circumstance influenced his opinion: he saw war all around him and concluded human beings were war mongers above all else. Exactly, NG. Hobbes recognized our nature and proposed the necessity of social compact. It doesn’t matter for the purposes of this OP that Hobbes’ solution was a failure and that Locke had a better idea. We are not discussing comparative civics here but essential human nature. Please see my reply to Kirata at #54 for a little more detail of my thinking if you have an interest. quote: In sum, and in the interests of clarity, Hobbes's political philosophy clearly left no room for democracy as he believed that when invoked with the right of appeal, we could not be trusted to be reasonable. The beauty of it is this: his own country has proven him wrong; there has been something like 400 years of stable democracy in England; our differences have been resolved at the ballot box; the state has not been overthrown; in-fighting and power struggles have been subordinated to reason. Again, I think this is a proposition of comparative civics that goes beyond the scope of the OP but I could not resist a reply because you so often have some worthy contributions to these boards. On this separate topic I think you are too generous in assigning success to reason and democracy. Perhaps it is true within your islands. But you did not become a worldwide Empire through the use of reason. Nor are your memorial markers to WWI and WWII testament to the success of reason. Additionally, the presence of your nation’s troops and my nation’s troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya hardly bolster the case for civic reason. Emotion, stupidity, and jingoism still play superior roles in the lives and actions of societies.

jlf1961 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 7:14:57 PM)
Technically according to the Act of Union 1800 the monarch does have the power to dismiss parliament but under the Act of Settlement 1701, they can not abolish it. The last time that the monarch dismissed the parliament in the UK was 1834, and the Governor-General in Australia with similar powers dismissed the Australian Parliament in 1975. If the Queen were to dismiss the Parliament, it would force a general election, but the government of the UK would then be vested in the next parliament to sit, not specifically the Queen.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 7:44:16 PM)
quote: [] ... human nature includes greed, murder, rape, and tribalism. [....] Ask Gordon Gecko [:D] To me it's kind of fitting that your account of things ends with an appeal to a fictional character, even if it was half in jest. There are some behaviours that humans engage in that we experience as 'natural'. For example, talking. Thoughts/feelings are converted into words and sentences that seem to flow out of our mouths automatically. There is a complicated selection and editing process in between but it all happens so quickly that it seems automatic and natural. No one would argue that there is an English-speaking gene. Speaking intelligibly is an acquired skill. Language is a human achievement. Yet few things feel as 'natural' as chatting/talking/speaking. It's very easy to slip from behaviour that we experience as natural to natural behaviour and then claim it's human nature. It's tempting to do so when one wants to 'naturalise' particular forms of behaviour that ignore the way most people actually live, and promotes mythological, highly-gendered, personal choices as 'natural'. But it's still a work of fiction, just like the character of Gordon Gecko. If human nature has any meaning, it has to describe how people choose to live left to their own devices. For the vast majority of humans that excludes things such as violence, war and rape. It does include our abilities to communicate, socialise and co-operate, which almost all of us exercise all day every day.

Kirata -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 7:45:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Let’s separate Nurture from Nature and throw out the baby for the moment... Let's not. You can't separate nature and nuture, any more than you can separate our "human" nature from our social nature. An organism and its environment constitute a system. Whether we are aggressive or cooperative toward others will depend on our perception (misperception in the case of developmental failures or disease) of the social environment in which we find ourselves. K.

Brain -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/24/2011 7:56:14 PM)
It's too complicated to define in a paragraph.

NorthernGent -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 1:08:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Exactly, NG. Hobbes recognized our nature and proposed the necessity of social compact. It doesn’t matter for the purposes of this OP that Hobbes’ solution was a failure and that Locke had a better idea. We are not discussing comparative civics here but essential human nature. Please see my reply to Kirata at #54 for a little more detail of my thinking if you have an interest. I would say Hobbes 'recognised' based on his circumstances - in other words, in a different age, he would have 'recognised' an entirely different nature. Absolutism could work were we really so bereft of anything other than a propensity for war; in that state of nature then perhaps we would be prepared to submit to an absolute sovereign in the interests of security. But we're so much more than war like, and so we are not prepared to accept such a system. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML On this separate topic I think you are too generous in assigning success to reason and democracy. Perhaps it is true within your islands. But you did not become a worldwide Empire through the use of reason. Nor are your memorial markers to WWI and WWII testament to the success of reason. Additionally, the presence of your nation’s troops and my nation’s troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya hardly bolster the case for civic reason. Emotion, stupidity, and jingoism still play superior roles in the lives and actions of societies. 1) Britain's most successful period was 1815 to 1914. This was a period of few wars for Britain. Also, it's true to say that Britain made a point of keeping out of all of the European wars from the 1600s onwards unless her trade opportunities were threatened, which is what the empire was built upon. 2) British policy is based on the same principles as it has always been: a) protect/secure trade b) the spread of English liberal values. There is certainly reason to it, although I would disagree with it. The British government does't fight wars because of a propensity towards war; on the contrary she has made a point of avoiding wars in which she could quite easily have become embroiled.

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