RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it

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NorthernGent -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 1:13:34 AM)
Which are all very subjective and could never be used as an objective standard of peace. I think we could say, though, that war and breaking the law are two standards that can be used to determine that which is a peaceful existence.

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 7:42:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Let’s separate Nurture from Nature and throw out the baby for the moment... Let's not. You can't separate nature and nuture, any more than you can separate our "human" nature from our social nature. An organism and its environment constitute a system. Whether we are aggressive or cooperative toward others will depend on our perception (misperception in the case of developmental failures or disease) of the social environment in which we find ourselves. K. Absolutely agree. Which means the genetic potential for aggression has not been lost but has been socialized and often amplified by the characteristics of our tribe. I never said human nature is not modified by environment. The OP did not ask for modification. Getting down to the nitty gritty our ancestors survived because they were cooperative predators. The phenotype for predatory aggression is still quite visible in human affairs however it is modified. The newborn babe is not a blank slate. It comes with a set of instructions. That set of instructions is its genetic heritage, its Nature, in my lexicon. I don't see where we have much disagreement except I propose the elements of Nature can be distinguished from the influence of Nurture. The easy example is the six foot ten inch tall youth who has the genetic potential to become a basketball player, or not, depending upon whether basketballs are a part of his environment. His environment does not change his basic phenotype. Then there have been abundant examples of sociopathic killers who were not at all influenced by their environment but had their impulses and fantasies of aggression from earliest memory. Nature separated from inaffectual Nurture. Again for emphasis, the babe comes with instructions ~ its inherited human nature.

Kirata -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 2:52:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I don't see where we have much disagreement... Ah, then please let me clarify it for you... quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Human nature is primative predatory violance hidden only by the thin cloak of socialization. Greed, rape, and murder are constantly struggling to jump free and wreck havoc. In my opinion, this is a profoundly distorted and misanthropic characterization of human nature. Thank you for asking. [:D] K.

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 3:41:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I don't see where we have much disagreement... Ah, then please let me clarify it for you... quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Human nature is primative predatory violance hidden only by the thin cloak of socialization. Greed, rape, and murder are constantly struggling to jump free and wreck havoc. In my opinion, this is a profoundly distorted and misanthropic characterization of human nature. Thank you for asking. [:D] K. Sooo ah what then in your opinion is a more proper characterization of human nature ? [:)]

Kirata -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 4:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Sooo ah what then in your opinion is a more proper characterization of human nature ? Well as a matter of fact, I think you'll find an excellent selection of more balanced views with which I would agree in one of the threads currently active in the P&R forum. Talk about coincidence, eh? [:D] K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 7:28:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Sooo ah what then in your opinion is a more proper characterization of human nature ? Well as a matter of fact, I think you'll find an excellent selection of more balanced views with which I would agree in one of the threads currently active in the P&R forum. Talk about coincidence, eh? [:D] K. The human nature you propose is inseparable from humans' social nature. I believe this is an accurate assessment. If there is a human nature it's surely profoundly social. As we are all social beings who engage in social activities in societies, this view of human nature is necessarily subjective. Would you agree that this perspective suggests: an objective assessment of human nature is beyond us?; and/or objectivity when examining any human behaviour is beyond us? While these inferences may appear self-evident to some, I am constantly surprised to encounter 'serious' studies of human behaviours that still claim to 'be' objective, or 'considered' from an objective position.

Edwynn -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 11:05:11 PM)
I recall some years ago reading a book about "the wild boy of Aveyron" and subsequently followed up with other less known cases of feral children that were found in the wild. In none of these cases did the children display aggression in the proper sense of the word. That is to say that they did not instigate agitation or violence towards another at any time. They could respond quite wildly, and even then only somewhat violently, in some cases, but only in response to something they did not like or want, in other words defensively or in protestation. Even after enough time with their guardians as to be used to them (so not avoiding them anymore) they never walked up to them to either hit them or grab things from from their person. They would take any object or item of food in plain sight but not if it was too close to the person. The majority of kids do not bully others. OTOH all the studies of school bullying have a common theme of violence at home. Whatever all that says about any of this.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/25/2011 11:54:53 PM)
Edwynn your story is consistent with research results. There have been innumerable research attempts to link aggression with some kind of genetic/biological inheritance (usually testosterone) but not one, AFAIK, has ever succeeded. Every single one of the thousands of attempts to establish a link has failed. OTOH, research into gender and early childhood development has generated a mountain of evidence that, from Day 1, children are trained in 'gender-appropriate' behaviours by all around them on a 24/7 basis. This includes exposing and encouraging boys to rougher sometimes violent behaviours and environments and rewarding them for responding in kind. And of course, protecting and discouraging girls from same too. All the evidence to date points to aggression and violence as learned (usually gendered) behaviours - therefore not 'natural' in the generally accepted meaning of the word. The corresponding failures of the 'biological' model emphasises this finding. This finding is further strengthened by the demonstrable fact that most humans and human societies only engage in these behaviours rarely - and then usually as an extreme, as a last resort. The conclusion seems to speak for itself. Edited to add: Wiki has an interesting account of the Aveyron child here. There is a fuller, very interesting account of the stories of wolf or feral children here. Sadly the evidence is far too sketchy and controversial to form any conclusions

Edwynn -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 6:05:30 AM)
Yes, the books I read on the Aveyron child and some of the others went into a lot more detail, especially Itard having kept daily or at least semi-weekly detailed records of the most famous one, enough for me to point out what I did earlier. Other aspects are more difficult, being that it is impossible to know the innate mental condition of these kids at birth. Some of them surely were abandoned because of mental deficiency, but there would seem to have been at least a few where that was not the case. The learning of language and other skills is not just a result of theretofore brain development but are themselves a part of brain development used for later learning, so the lack of brain development in this regard at the critical stage in life makes it harder to distinguish between that or congenital inability in these cases. They still debate which is the case for the Av. boy to this day. Also, what I meant about violence at home was referring predominantly to violence upon the child, usually by a parent, not social gender conditioning, as for the studies I mentioned. I remember when I was a kid the several times I either went into the home or walked nearby the home of one of these really 'tough' kids, not all of whom were actual bullies, one or both of the parents were the meanest adults I'd ever seen, some of them having no qualms about threatening to whip the hell out of their kid in front of others. I remember one fellow I worked with who was an OK sort on most days but really violence prone. He'd tell me how his daddy used to whip the holy bejesus out of him on a regular basis. And don't forget Hitler. As for some here so adamant about aggression being an inherent quality of human nature, I'm thinking their particular nurture has a lot to do with that outlook, though not saying their experience was anything like the above.

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 7:25:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Sooo ah what then in your opinion is a more proper characterization of human nature ? Well as a matter of fact, I think you'll find an excellent selection of more balanced views with which I would agree in one of the threads currently active in the P&R forum. Talk about coincidence, eh? [:D] K. You dodge the question. Are you afraid to make an affirmative statement which can be subject to scrutiny? It seems that way. [:)]

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 8:02:26 AM)
quote: The human nature you propose is inseparable from humans' social nature. I believe this is an accurate assessment. If there is a human nature it's surely profoundly social. As we are all social beings who engage in social activities in societies, this view of human nature is necessarily subjective. No one proposed that human nature is inseperable from social nature. Only that it is modified by socialization. From early on i suggested that while aggressive predators by inherited nature men also were tribal. Hence they cooperated. Here is a link to an article which discusses cooperation and altruism as evolutionary traits. The article discusses a controversy among Evolution scientists as to the pressures that lead to the evolution of cooperation but it recognizes clearly that they agree that cooperation (i.e. social formation) is a part of human evolution. Humans cooperate for many reasons but a casual glance at human history will show that war and predation, fear and defense have been paramount reasons for banding together. Cooperation for more efficient aggression or stronger defense leaps out from any reading of human history i think. quote: Would you agree that this perspective suggests: an objective assessment of human nature is beyond us?; and/or objectivity when examining any human behaviour is beyond us? Kirata might agree but i do not speak for him. i cannot agree with your points because to do so washes away all of the studies of human evolution, sociology, and psychology, not to mention criminology. quote: While these inferences may appear self-evident to some, I am constantly surprised to encounter 'serious' studies of human behaviours that still claim to 'be' objective, or 'considered' from an objective position. And yet you go on in your very next post to make this astonishingly contradictory statement: "All the evidence to date points to aggression and violence as learned (usually gendered) behaviours - therefore not 'natural' in the generally accepted meaning of the word. The corresponding failures of the 'biological' model emphasises this finding." You can't have it both ways. You can't claim our studies of human behavior are flawed by subjectivity and then go on to so adamently use research to bolster your position about human behavor. While i am at it let me comment on this statement as well: "This finding is further strengthened by the demonstrable fact that most humans and human societies only engage in these behaviours rarely - and then usually as an extreme, as a last resort." Again the most cursory reading of human history offers a rebuttal. i doubt if you can string together a couple of decades when one group was not acting belligerently toward another. History bears out my original contention that homo sapiens is an essentially aggressive and tribal species by evolution. Elsewise, being weaker than the other predators our species would not have survived.

vincentML -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 8:10:02 AM)
quote: As for some here so adamant about aggression being an inherent quality of human nature, I'm thinking their particular nurture has a lot to do with that outlook, though not saying their experience was anything like the above. Edwynn continues to demonstrate his inability to carry on a rational discussion without remarking on the character or imagined agenda of those with opposing views. Not sure what his problem is but he engages in a silliness that makes it difficult to give serious attention to any of his propositions. We do not win points on these public boards for disrespect of those with whom we disagree.

Edwynn -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 8:58:30 AM)
It was not an agenda and it was not disrespect. That reading is yours.

Edwynn -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 11:58:50 AM)
PS Meant to say; not to do with possible agenda of others or not. I have no idea others' purpose in such insistence.

Kirata -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 12:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Are you afraid to make an affirmative statement which can be subject to scrutiny? It seems that way. I did make a statement that can be subjected to scrutiny: I said that your view of human nature is distorted and misanthropic. Several other posters have commented on this as well, pointing out the various glaring weaknesses of your view. Why don't you stop baiting people and just take one for the team. [:D] K.

PeonForHer -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 12:58:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Why don't you stop baiting people and just take one for the team. [:D] K.[/font][/size] Just a little tip, Kirata: it'd probably help you in your mission to banish 'baiting' on these forums if you could bring yourself, just occasionally, to post a comment without finishing it with a "[:D]" emoticon.

Kirata -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 1:09:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Just a little tip, Kirata: it'd probably help you in your mission to banish 'baiting' on these forums if you could bring yourself, just occasionally, to post a comment without finishing it with a "[:D]" emoticon. Why thank you! As a matter of fact, I did that just recently right here. [:D] K.

PeonForHer -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 1:51:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Just a little tip, Kirata: it'd probably help you in your mission to banish 'baiting' on these forums if you could bring yourself, just occasionally, to post a comment without finishing it with a "[:D]" emoticon. Why thank you! As a matter of fact, I did that just recently right here. K. So you did, Kirata, so you did. I hadn't seen that comment in reply to mine, and I now feel blessed that you've seen fit to give me this extra chance to benefit from the warmth, love and absolute lack of nasty, small-minded, smug smartarseness that only a deeply spiritual person such as yourself can reach. You said, in that post: " think it safe to say that what you were taught was sincerely believed, and that it was urged upon you in genuine concern for your well-being. Your beliefs may have changed later in life, but this bitter gratuitous crap about having been 'propagandized' and 'lied' to does not reflect an improved grasp of reality or a kinder personality having resulted therefrom." Yeah, right. My beliefs did indeed change later in life. I learned that the world didn't, in fact, begin just six thousand years ago. I also learned that a God who, for instance, would send two bulls to kill forty children just because they'd mocked one of 'H'is prophets for being bald was no sane person's idea of a good and loving God. Kirata, this is ridiculous drivel. Yes, I have a bitterness in me that this kind of crap was pumped into my mind at an age when I was too young to have the critical faculties I needed to see it for the utterly fucked up bollocks that it was. That, of course, was deliberate: religious nuts know full well that unless they grab people young, they've very little chance of bludgeoning their minds into the shape they want them. It was propaganda, and it was* a concerted attempt at indoctrination. I'm sorry that you see me as having developed a less kind personality as a result of realising it all for what it was. . . but, well, there we are. From what I've seen of your own personality - I'm pretty damned sure I don't want any such 'kindness' in me, anyway. Oh, almost forgot: I'll end with a "[:D]" just to show how jovial and on-top-of-things I feel about this discussion we're having. This, I'm sure, will make you respect my opinions just as much as I do yours when you use the same emoticon.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 6:10:06 PM)
quote: It was propaganda, and it was* a concerted attempt at indoctrination. Dawkins (his many flaws notwithstanding) argues that this amounts to child abuse. I've got to say I sympathise with that view. Contemporary concerns about madrassas producing suicide bombers tend to confirm it, wouldn't you say?

gungadin09 -> RE: Human nature- whatever you wanna say about it (4/26/2011 6:11:35 PM)
Yeah, y'all are right. There's no aggression in human nature. Where the hell did i get that idea from? pam

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