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RE: correct grammer - 5/18/2007 3:16:15 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
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I'm probably the ultimate combination: writer, translator and TEFL qualified English (as a Second Language) teacher.

So people have problems reading 'colour' and not 'color'? I can only shake my head.

English is spoken by over 800 million people all over the planet, over half as a native language and the rest as a lingua franca. It's also the most popular second language to learn on this planet. There are well over a million words, thus English has more words than any other language. Of these million plus words, you're unlikely to ever get to know or understand any more than about 25,000 words, and in your everyday life you are unlikely to use any more than 400 or so words.

It is a language with grammatical rules common to both Germanic languages and the Romance languages (or Latin based such as French, Spanish, Italian, Latin), it has also absorbed words from many other different languages. However basic grammar is relatively simple, one gender, two cases and two tenses - past and present.

I wonder how the grammar police would react if we were all communicating here in Russian which has nine cases ('erm no, you should have used the Accusative Case to say that, not the Instrumental Case) or in Chinese where the same syllable, for example 'wun' can be expressed by as many as twenty five different characters, all of which are correct.

What English doesn't have which many other languages do have is a simple straghtforward pronunciation and spelling system. We have 'through', then we have 'cough', then we have 'bough', and also 'rough' - all spelt the same way but pronounced much differently. One word can have many different meanings. Believe me, unless you are Dutch or perhaps Danish learning English is not as straightforward as we may think.

We ourselves can also be caught out. How many of us have to stop and really think or use a spellchecker and dictionary when we write 'parallel', 'embarrassment', 'aggression' or 'the Caribbean'?

Not everyone here can be a Bob Dylan, or a Sylvia Plath or Ernest Hemingway, and the truth is WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. I can write, it is my job, my career, my passion, but ask me to divide 8,345 by 24 and if you haven't got a calculator nearby all you'll get from me is a blank stare. I cannot make a simple set of shelves from wood. Each time I cook rice quite often I burn it. Even making a simple pancake is something way beyond my capabilities. I can cook, but I have to watch the rice and pancakes are not on my menu.

So does not being able to make a simple pancake make me a retard? Well does it? Not everybody can write, not everybody can spell, and though many people can use grammar when they speak they can run into problems when they write. But these very same people can maybe work out abstract equations off the top of their heads, they can paint beautiful pictures, make beautiful music, make wonderful furniture or even build a house with their own bare hands.

We write just for the same reason we speak - to communicate. Therefore as long as I can understand what someone is writing I don't see mistakes in grammar or spelling as a big issue, I see the mistakes but I can work out the correct word from the context of the sentence. This is why so many people in this world want to learn English. You don't need to have to say 'I am going to the shop' - 'I go shop' says exactly the same.

But our language is also personal, something close to us. I am British, my Dominant is American, she uses English completely differently to me, and while there are sometimes misunderstandings due to regionality and culture, we communicate fine and understand each other perfectly.

This is a forum on a BDSM website.We're not writing business reports, we're not writing dissertations. We're writing postings, for our own amusement and enjoyment, to learn and for our own self-development. It's supposed to be fun, interesting. It's interesting not because people are writing Pulitzer prize nomination material, but because they are sharing their thoughts, opinions, feelings and experiences about a subject we are all interested in - BDSM.

Most people have difficulties taking criticism. Justified criticism is painful because it is brutal, it is honest, and it takes away the pleasure of our illusions. But petty criticism hurts just that little bit more, because it takes away much of that sense of achievement and self-appreciation we all feel when we achieve something.

Our language is personal, very personal, and even well-meaning criticism can strike deep into someone's self-confidence. Writing is more difficult than speaking because you have to think, it requires mental effort. A forum provides mental stimulation. And that 300 word posting might have taken someone an entire evening to come up with.

So anytime you want to play schoolteacher just stop and think. Ask yourself the following:

1. Have the errors affected my understanding of the context of the posting?
2. Can't I write this person a short message asking for clarification?
3. Do I really need to make someone feel bad over such a small and insignificant error?



_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to robertolapiedra)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: correct grammer - 5/18/2007 6:28:14 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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Hello stella40. In English when people say he/she has a good education or is educated it means having had more than average schooling. In French having a good education means knowing how to be a good responsable and respectable person. We have another word for academics: «instruction» which is not not necessarily conductive to «savoir vivre» no matter what and how many degrees one may possess.

I highly appreciate your post as it demonstrates clearly that you have a good «éducation» and also a good "education". Maybe two languages are needed too understand the subtlety of french and english quotations marks but non is needed for the language of respect of the person speaking (or writing). This language is aphonetical, it is called 'listening with consideration' (and not with superior arrogance). It necessitates a minimal base of words, syntax and grammar and a genuine honest and 'interested' effort to understand a human being representing a whole universe of thought and experience.

Again, I thank you for your well «educated» replies. RL.

Edit: typo


< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 5/18/2007 6:30:14 PM >

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: correct grammer - 5/18/2007 7:41:38 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrpettigrew

as i can not spell in english good  do not have a spell checker and  problems finding the correct words in english to express serlf to others in a style of great intrest  i am courious as to the  fact people make such a big deal over these things and show less concern about the person involved then the grammer used. I am not refuring to rudness but simple spelling  nothing more . i guress for  all here or the greater part  all who do not write the language to their standards are excluded as  fools or stupid . Comments welcome ,


You're 51 (according to your profile).

Your're from Canada.

You're old enough to be capable of spelling across borders.

(The follow on posters have been far too generous).


(in reply to mrpettigrew)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: correct grammer - 5/18/2007 7:47:26 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

Well, maybe during some times of the month when I'm bloated and feel like there's someone else inside me. Other than that, I'm sticking with dominant woman.


Men would never say this kind of thing.

Frankly...when that time of the month rolls around where my dick is 7 times that which is normal (and I can last for hours)....I just can't handle things....I start to feel like I'm a sex object or something.

(in reply to 4u2spoil)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 12:48:19 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

I start to feel like I'm a sex object or something.



You are a sex object.

Or something.

Enjoy!

Sinergy

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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 1:01:28 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Look up "dominant" in a dictionary.  You'll find that it's not a noun after all (except as a musical term, which isn't what we're talking about).  The BDSM world has invented the word "dominant" as a noun.


And your point is? 

Animal behaviorists have essentially done the same thing, and use the word in much the same way because it functions logically as a noun in this context.  That's how language evolves. 

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 1:25:47 AM   
Dzeid


Posts: 22
Joined: 8/10/2006
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I understand some of what the OP is going though. I am severely dyslexic. It takes so much time and energy to post messages that I don't for the most part. I have learned of a couple of different programs that words are spoken to the computer and the program writes out the correct sentence. One is called Dragon Speak, and I can't remember the others one's name at this late hour. I am to see a demo of the two programs to help me decide which one would help me most to get through graduate school.  I hope this helps the OP and any others who have similar problems. Contact me if you have any questions.   Peace,   Dzeid

(in reply to wouldlike2)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 8:34:49 AM   
PairOfDimes


Posts: 324
Joined: 7/20/2006
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I can't learn anything about the person writing to me if I cannot understand what the person writing to me is trying to communicate. If I can understand his or her meaning, but with much effort, the communication is going to be less rewarding for me. It doesn't necessarily mean that a person writing to me with poor language skills is stupid or foolish, but it does mean that I'm not likely to want to continue the conversation.

(in reply to mrpettigrew)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 8:54:35 AM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline
I don't blame people who have english as their second language for bad grammar nor spelling, since I am in that situation too, english is not my mothertongue. But my tolerance is severely decreased when a person whose english is the only language they speak can't write a decently correct text. Of course I don't bash people who are dyslexic, however dyslexic people  in many cases share the same kind of text errors so they usually can be easily distinguished from those who just plainly have no ambition for what they are writing. 

(in reply to PairOfDimes)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 9:15:13 AM   
SirDominic


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Joined: 11/22/2006
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I haven't had the time to go through all the posts, so just some thoughts. The Internet started as a very open, laid back medium. That's where all those one letter shortcuts came from. This was very common at one time and very accepted. As the net has matured though, it has become a more serious medium for communication. People's ability to use full words, proper punctuation, correct spelling, etc., has become the standard more often than not. One's ability to communicate their words in a proper style usually means their words are given more consideration than someone who is sloppy in these regards.

It does make it harder for those where English is a second language, or those who have dyslexia, or those who just never learned good language skills.

It may not be fair, but that is the bottom line. Why can't one use poor English and have it good enough as long as they can get their message across? That really varies depending on the reader. Some are very forgiving, others will skip the post entirely. It also depends on the forum. Someone reading on this one is likely to be much more forgiving than someone posting on a professional forum.

Namaste, Sir Dominic




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(in reply to Viridana)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: correct grammer - 5/19/2007 6:03:53 PM   
LadyDominaX


Posts: 173
Joined: 5/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrpettigrew

as i can not spell in english good  do not have a spell checker and  problems finding the correct words in english to express serlf to others in a style of great intrest  i am courious as to the  fact people make such a big deal over these things and show less concern about the person involved then the grammer used. I am not refuring to rudness but simple spelling  nothing more . i guress for  all here or the greater part  all who do not write the language to their standards are excluded as  fools or stupid . Comments welcome ,


You're 51 (according to your profile).

Your're from Canada.

You're old enough to be capable of spelling across borders.

(The follow on posters have been far too generous).




It is so lovely to see that someone else checked the profile!

Some of the most beautiful writings I have ever read were created in English by a Spanish gent.  English was not his first language but he took the time to learn it and learn it well.

For some people, the ability to write well is not a big deal.  That is fine for them; if they enjoy mangling the language, they can enjoy it together.  For me, language is a thing of beauty.  I love reading Chaucer and Shakespeare, Pratchett and Gaiman, Pohl and Tolkien.  If you wish to impress me, the ability to compose and present your ideas with proper grammar goes a long way.

I am dyslexic as well, and I have taken the time to learn where I make mistakes most often, so when I type those words I know are problematic, I spell check and proof read repeatedly.  I have also learnt to touch type so that I am not relying on looking at the keys.  After typing for years I am able to key in most words as quickly as I think them, unless of course I have a cat helping me.

If you love cars and the person approaching you doesn't know a Dart from a Duster, they aren't likely to appeal to you.  No-one would be upset if you said you weren't interested in them because they didn't know that.  Why, then, does it upset so many people when there are those of us to whom grammar matters?

*edited for spacing glitch*


< Message edited by LadyDominaX -- 5/19/2007 6:05:50 PM >

(in reply to Griswold)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: correct grammer - 5/24/2007 7:37:26 PM   
LadyPaige


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I do get my panties twisted when someone storms into the forums proclaiming their brilliance and magna cum laude degrees in English then proceed to make errors of their own or worse, make up words which don't exist!

Celeste


I agree whole heartedly!  I recently received an e-mail from someone claiming to be a writer that was just atrocious.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: correct grammer - 5/24/2007 7:39:27 PM   
LadyPaige


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
It's frustrating to try to read posts and e-mails that are so full of misspellings that you feel like you're doing a word puzzle.  One doesn't usually want to put that much work into simply reading someone's post.  That being said, I wouldn't judge the spelling, but the thought behind it...... if I can understand it. 

(in reply to mrpettigrew)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: correct grammer - 5/24/2007 10:24:31 PM   
ennaozzie


Posts: 201
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline
Well there is a spell check on here you can down load and install so the web site told me when i clicked on the tick, so i did that and installed it and it is still telling me i dont have it installed.

Oh well back to typing up most things on the word doc where it does it for me before I copy and paste in here.

English is my first and only language and it was rather late in life it was realised i only had 50% of my middle tones which is the range most people speak, caused by a disorder i have so born like that.

Once it was discovered why i had so many problems learning, how ever that was after i left school which i hated so much. yet i have done more reading in the few years after leaving school than i ever did in my whole school life, i left school at 14, with little education, and the only subjects i excelled in was music and art, hence my english is really bad. when it comes to writing, but my reading is fantastic.

The level i am at now which you can tell from what i have written here as i have not put this in a word document first, its still not great but i do office work (and get paid) and the computer helps hide how bad i am.

But even though my written english is really bad and spelling, i still like and apreachate something well written, my emails used to be one big huge long sentence with no full stops or anything, keep going keep pushing i know i have come along way and still have a way to go, but never give up.

There are many reasons why some are not that good at english other than language barriers etc.  But i do think some think they are just lazy and dont bother or they dont give a shit, and it may be true but not all those that struggle with written english are lazy or just dont care.

Anyway just wanted to show there are many reasons for bad english, and looking at what i wrote i have not done to bad without the spell check of word lol.

beanie


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If coffee hurts your eye's take the spoon out of the mug

(in reply to mrpettigrew)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: correct grammer - 5/25/2007 1:32:45 AM   
m0rgan


Posts: 403
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline
i browse with firefox, and my pc is set-up for us-english, my spellchecker is integral to one of those and underlines potential mistakes in red, mostly because the english spell properly (not in esperanto or bastardized text-speak) i have to override it. i don't use capitals, just one of my idiosyncracies, and i communicate with a portuguese/brazilian speaking chap on another forum that uses a faulty/inefficient translate programme both ways (which can make for some interesting phrases and amusing non-sequitors) what you are saying counts for more than the way you say it, but i go along with a previous poster that as good as said "stupid fuckers have little of interest to say anyway" (paraphrased, obviously)!
i sort of accept dyslexia (in that i know it exists) but lazy dumb thickos definitely use it as an excuse to not be bothered about the way they write!!
when you want to fight, you select your weapon. when you want to communicate something, in writing, you should choose and use your words, and carefully, not slapdash any old shite then bitch that people don't like it!
being careless doesn't mean you have "attention deficit disorder" in the same way gambling every day doesn't mean you have "addictive personality disease"!!


_____________________________


download this, the girls voice will make you damp--->

http://www.saab.com/main/GLOBAL/en/download_release_me.shtml


a loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou,
beside me, in the wilderness, were paradise enough!

(in reply to ennaozzie)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: correct grammer - 5/25/2007 2:21:04 AM   
SanDieganMichael


Posts: 56
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: San Diego
Status: offline
      I accept and encourage those who do not speak English as a native tongue to show us how pretentious many of us may become; by challenging us to understand the language we often take for granted … with our own arrogance and errors.  For me it is not the minor errors in grammar or even typing errors that is a pet peeve.  I abhor Internet short hand in posts and in forums.  I know it may be useful for typing in a chat room or in a Personal Message service. I do not believe in a discussion forum it is appropriate.
     For example, in this forum in which we are having this shared dialogue it should be well-thought out and well-reasoned.  If one were posting as many of us may have in the forum … “last one to post wins” … it would be perfectly acceptable to use shorthand speech.
     The one exception, I see to this, is when using LOL or many of its derivatives.   I believe it is acceptable, because typing <laughs> to many has a decidedly different connotation (one of derision).
     That is my 2¢.

(in reply to ladychatterley)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: correct grammer - 10/8/2007 8:08:22 PM   
MeiDominium


Posts: 3
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps, Sir, you don't give some of us nearly enough credit.  Don't you think????


or, perhaps, some people simply confuse dominance with arrogance






< Message edited by MeiDominium -- 10/8/2007 8:11:31 PM >

(in reply to Magdalene)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: correct gramme - 10/15/2007 4:05:20 AM   
mons


Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
greetings

i was teased for sometime when i came here, and even after  i tried my best i was ask if english is my second language.  no one thought to ask me if i has a problem with my eyes or mons what is  the problem but one group helped me greatly the groeans. they took the time to help me, but my eyes did not correct right so i had to go and find out why. i hit my head some year ago and after that i began to have the problems. now i am blessed to have glasses that corrected my eye sight and i can see so well and lol they are thick as hell but what a different . i know what you mean some will help you and not care other will make you feel like shit becasue they do not understand you writing when it is so easy to tell what you saying i say write as best as you can but be prepare they will attack you . i wish you luck keep trying and when you hear a word listening to the whole word the first letter and the last.

take care
mons

(in reply to mrpettigrew)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: correct grammer - 10/15/2007 5:32:01 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
You can add a signature here. I suggest you do so using a sentence that states you are not a native English speaker. However you are attempting to communicate with native English speakers, and therefore you ought to use a spell check and grammar check programs. Many people, native English speakers, post first into a word document and check it there, and then copy and paste into the forum box.

Is there any particular reason you don't want to take the extra minute required to make your posts understandable by the audience you are addressing?

By joining an English speaking forum, it is incumbent upon you to try to join us. It is not required that we all try to translate our posts into your native language. Perhaps you would do better to find a site that discusses BDSM in your language.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: correct grammer - 10/15/2007 6:03:33 AM   
therealboss


Posts: 227
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
don't worry about it,most people on here will forgive for that,only a few silly people will complain,we all make mistakes some times,including the silly people themselves 

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be the best

(in reply to mrpettigrew)
Profile   Post #: 140
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