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RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 7:58:51 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Not sure what you are going on about. He was threatening when they got in the room. They had a finite amount of time. They had to make a decision. And they did. I am fine with it.

Say your kid was killed. You and others have been looking for the killer but till now it has alluded you. All of the sudden you get information that a trusted friend that you have given copious amounts of money and protection to has the killer hidden away. Now, do you wait and not go get the killer and still talk to that friend? Or do you decide that friend is pretty untrustworthy and you better go ahead into his house and get the killer yourself.......

People call the embassy up press charges have th elocal police units arrest him and start criminal proceedings.

oh wait no you grab a gang of thugs go in blasting, dispose of the body at sea and quickly burn down the house and pretend the locals did not say that OBL did not live there.
the american way.
LMAO

Mr. Tyranny

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/10/2011 7:59:48 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Post #: 61

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:05:13 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
He was threatening when they got in the room.

Umm, if all they wanted was to not feel threatened, then they could have achieved that purpose by not entering his cell?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
better go ahead into his house and get the killer yourself.......

I quite understand that in the USA the Cardassian rules of law apply: the suspect is by definition guilty and all a judge has to do is to rubber stamp his name on the death order.

I know that obl was not guilty, but lesser people will never know that because his opportunity to clear his name in a court of law was not permitted to him.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)

Post #: 62

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:08:34 AM

LaTigresse

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I am going to go out on a limb here and say.......all things considered. I doubt the parameters for what behaviour would be deemed as threatening were too.......lax.

Sometimes it's better/safer/more sensible to err on the side of caution.

BLEWY!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 63

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:11:53 AM

SilverMark

Posts: 3457
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
He was threatening when they got in the room.

Umm, if all they wanted was to not feel threatened, then they could have achieved that purpose by not entering his cell?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
better go ahead into his house and get the killer yourself.......

I quite understand that in the USA the Cardassian rules of law apply: the suspect is by definition guilty and all a judge has to do is to rubber stamp his name on the death order.

I know that obl was not guilty, but lesser people will never know that because his opportunity to clear his name in a court of law was not permitted to him.

We lesser people who don't reference Star Trek in our posts we wish to have taken seriously just to confuse people....Such brilliance...oh to be so sure and condecending in ones own opinions as you...you are laughable!

_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 64

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:11:56 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
He was threatening when they got in the room.

If they had not entered his cell-for-life, they would not have felt threatened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
better go ahead into his house and get the killer yourself.......

Very Cardassian: the suspect by definition is guilty, so go ahead and murder him.

In The Netherlands, I hope, he would have been deemed not guilty until he was convicted by a number of judges in a court of law.

I know that he was not guilty; lesser people now will never know, because he was intentionally not permitted to clear his name in a court of law.

There were no planes that crashed and them two towers were blown up.

Edited to add: Sorry for doing a kind of double post. I got the impression that something had gone wrong the first time (and the second time as well).

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/10/2011 8:14:45 AM >

(in reply to DomYngBlk)

Post #: 65

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:13:31 AM

Aneirin

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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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quote:

Whatever you may think of American commerce or the American military does not justify the taking of innocent lives.

You are forgetting something, it is not I that is the terrorist, like I said in another post somewhere, in order to defeat an enemy, learn to think as they, Sun Tzu was a very wise man, and The Art of War I recommend reading it. For the religious nut jobs that want to attack America, symbology has meaning and has done so for thousands of years, so do not negate that fact where fanatical religion is concerned.

The building is a symbol, as is the act of destroying it. Symbols are given power by their people. By itself, a symbol is meaningless, but with enough people, blowing up a building can change the world. - Quote from V is for Vendetta

Furthermore what we see as innocent lives, others,the other side, enemies, terrorists might see as something else, acceptable casualties perhaps.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 66

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:18:35 AM

samboct

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If OBL had wanted to surrender prior to the raid- he was certainly afforded that opportunity.

I'm not going to second guess the people going in harm's way to get the guy. It does sound like there were weapons present. Booby traps have also been part of the arsenal of the terrorists. But there is a world of difference in between police in this country arresting someone when they can request massive backup to a small force in a foreign country operating illegally. We're not at war with Pakistan, we had no rights to go get OBL there. On the other hand, had we asked Pakistan to go get him, the likelihood is that he would have skipped. So pragmatically, we did the correct action- we stopped an ongoing threat.

People who say that we should have taken OBL alive miss this point- this guy was a continuing threat to citizens of the US and other countries. It's not like he was peaceably patting nurses bottoms in a rest home and drooling- it looks like he was continuing to plan further attacks. Prudence dictates that if there is any chance of the guy evading- and given the layout of the compound, the possibility of hidey holes, reinforcements from outside- these are real possibilities- then the prudent thing is to make sure he can't flee first. Furthermore, shooting someone in the leg who may be within arms reach of a weapon strikes me as risky- and I don't see asking our troops to take that unnecessary risk.

Sam

PS- Mark- in the book the Ugly American- it was the not well dressed and coiffed slob who actually got out and tried to help the native folks- the pretty guy in the book was a slime bucket.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 67

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:21:42 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

If OBL had wanted to surrender prior to the raid- he was certainly afforded that opportunity.

I'm not going to second guess the people going in harm's way to get the guy. It does sound like there were weapons present. Booby traps have also been part of the arsenal of the terrorists. But there is a world of difference in between police in this country arresting someone when they can request massive backup to a small force in a foreign country operating illegally. We're not at war with Pakistan, we had no rights to go get OBL there. On the other hand, had we asked Pakistan to go get him, the likelihood is that he would have skipped. So pragmatically, we did the correct action- we stopped an ongoing threat.

People who say that we should have taken OBL alive miss this point- this guy was a continuing threat to citizens of the US and other countries. It's not like he was peaceably patting nurses bottoms in a rest home and drooling- it looks like he was continuing to plan further attacks. Prudence dictates that if there is any chance of the guy evading- and given the layout of the compound, the possibility of hidey holes, reinforcements from outside- these are real possibilities- then the prudent thing is to make sure he can't flee first. Furthermore, shooting someone in the leg who may be within arms reach of a weapon strikes me as risky- and I don't see asking our troops to take that unnecessary risk.

Sam

PS- Mark- in the book the Ugly American- it was the not well dressed and coiffed slob who actually got out and tried to help the native folks- the pretty guy in the book was a slime bucket.

do you question the local people who are scratching their head in amazement who said OBL did not live there?

That was on mainstream news!

do you question why they want to bulldoze it down as soon as possible?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 68

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:24:40 AM

SilverMark

Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

If OBL had wanted to surrender prior to the raid- he was certainly afforded that opportunity.

I'm not going to second guess the people going in harm's way to get the guy. It does sound like there were weapons present. Booby traps have also been part of the arsenal of the terrorists. But there is a world of difference in between police in this country arresting someone when they can request massive backup to a small force in a foreign country operating illegally. We're not at war with Pakistan, we had no rights to go get OBL there. On the other hand, had we asked Pakistan to go get him, the likelihood is that he would have skipped. So pragmatically, we did the correct action- we stopped an ongoing threat.

People who say that we should have taken OBL alive miss this point- this guy was a continuing threat to citizens of the US and other countries. It's not like he was peaceably patting nurses bottoms in a rest home and drooling- it looks like he was continuing to plan further attacks. Prudence dictates that if there is any chance of the guy evading- and given the layout of the compound, the possibility of hidey holes, reinforcements from outside- these are real possibilities- then the prudent thing is to make sure he can't flee first. Furthermore, shooting someone in the leg who may be within arms reach of a weapon strikes me as risky- and I don't see asking our troops to take that unnecessary risk.

Sam

PS- Mark- in the book the Ugly American- it was the not well dressed and coiffed slob who actually got out and tried to help the native folks- the pretty guy in the book was a slime bucket.

Yes, I know, it was truly writen about Lansdale was actually a good hearted guy.

_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 69

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:28:22 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It's not a war tactic. We don't kill unarmed combatants or criminals. It's not what we are supposed to do.

Bingo ! You got it one

As to a person resisting arrest, well, even our law enforcement officers can answer that one, but as ever, in most militaries, the rule of minimum force prevails and special forces are just that, because they have the capacity to think and act correctly in more difficult situations than what the standard squaddie might encounter.

Furthermore I don't for one moment think the elite forces would have negated wearing body armour, and there was by some accounts, eighty of them on the job.

Was OBL armed ?

Was he not, in which case I should think there are many who would loved to have strode across a room a lumped him one straight between the eyes, a broken nose tends to make one lose whatever focus they might previously had. But perhaps obl banked on the fact that whoever came to get him, would shoot him so it could be seen that he as he said, would not be taken alive.

Now, not being taken alive, what does that conjure up in the mind.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 70

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:56:24 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
in most militaries, the rule of minimum force prevails

Hm, police are well known for using excessive force against people they arrest. One of my relatives testified against a pair of officers who arrested her drunk neighbor at night meters from him getting home - where he would have bothered no-one except for his alcoholic wife - using excessive force, the older cop urging the younger one on.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 71

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 8:58:32 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

So they got him, a bullet in the brain,many are questioning to order given to the seals..I believe they were order to kill obl..what say all of you.I am retired miltary a sf major and every time one raise their hands to surrender or un armed we took them alive.

I have heard stories to the contrary both in the Vietnam War and the War against Japan in the Pacific. I found this info with regard to your assertion:

"It has been estimated that between 19,500 and 50,000 Japanese military personnel surrendered to Allied forces prior to the end of the Pacific War in August 1945.[1] The number of Japanese soldiers, sailors and airmen who surrendered was limited by the Japanese military indoctrinating its personnel to fight to the death, Allied personnel often being unwilling to take prisoners,[2] and many Japanese soldiers believing that those who surrendered often were killed anyway.[3] [4] "

And this:

"Allied military personnel were reluctant to take Japanese prisoners at the start of the war. US forces were generally unwilling to accept the surrender of Japanese during the first two years of the war due to a combination of racist attitudes and anger at Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and atrocities committed against Allied troops.[16][22] Australian soldiers were also reluctant to take Japanese prisoners for similar reasons.[23] Incidents in which Japanese troops booby-trapped their dead and wounded or pretended to surrender in order to lure Allied troops into ambushes were well known within the Allied militaries and also hardened attitudes against seeking the surrender of Japanese on the battlefield.[24] As a result, Allied troops believed that their Japanese opponents would not surrender and that any attempts to surrender were deceptive;[25] for instance, the Australian jungle warfare school advised soldiers to shoot any Japanese troops who had their hands closed while surrendering.[23] Furthermore, in many instances Japanese soldiers who had surrendered were killed on the front line or while being taken to POW compounds.[26] The nature of jungle warfare also contributed to prisoners not being taken, as many battles were fought at close ranges where participants "often had no choice but to shoot first and ask questions later".[27] SOURCE

With respect to offing OBL . . . well, it was an assassination well justified and deserved. Tough shit. Get over it.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/10/2011 9:01:11 AM >

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 72

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 9:08:39 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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Well I am no virgin to laying in wait to kill a high ranking officer or offical,WE did it plenty of times but they weren't in their home with family around thats what makes the difference.The grunts in nam didn;t like to take prisoners but thats what were there for to take people and attain info..BH

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

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Post #: 73

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 9:20:21 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Well I am no virgin to laying in wait to kill a high ranking officer or offical,WE did it plenty of times but they weren't in their home with family around thats what makes the difference.The grunts in nam didn;t like to take prisoners but thats what were there for to take people and attain info..BH

war is declared between "states".

OBL nor alquaeda is a state.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 74

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 9:53:15 AM

samboct

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Vincent

Both "Fire in the Sky" and "Shattered Sword" also point out that the Japanese attitudes towards taking prisoners was pretty grim. Captured US fliers were beheaded on occasion, and one pilot who was tortured at the Battle of Midway as part of his interrogation was then thrown into the ocean with a filled 5 gallon jerrycan tied to his body. On the US side- when Japanese troop ships were sunk- US fliers were ordered to strafe the survivors in the water. (From Fire in the Sky).

All too often we forget that most of these combatants on either side were often little more than teen agers. The youngest sailor on the Akagi was 17 IIRC and from my perspective as a sailor- the ocean is a common enemy. High ranking officers did give orders (and Doenitz was famous for this one) about leaving survivors to their fate in both the Atlantic and the Pacific but individual skippers either obeyed or disobeyed these orders according to their conscience.

Sam

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 75

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 10:21:17 AM

Real0ne

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how do you fit 1000-2000 men on a sub?

they are dead in a matter of minutes due to hypothermia in the north seas.

who would be close enough to save them at 25 - 35 knots?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 76

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 10:33:50 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
they are dead in a matter of minutes due to hypothermia in the north seas.

Indead. People who are lost in the waters of the North Sea (between England and The Netherlands, Denmark and Scandinavia) survive the cold for at most twelve minutes.

I do recall one remarkable Icelandic survivor story and this quote may describe that event:

quote:

Gudlaugur Fridthorsson. He swam about six hours--at least five times as long as anyone ever has in water that cold. [This was 1984]

When he reached Heimaey, he found himself in a hostile wave-battered niche in the new lava, up against a cliff. His purchase there being hopeless, he want back into the sea. He swam about half a mile south and, this time, climbed out on a broad flow of apalhraun, the sharpest and roughest texture of volcanic glass. Barefoot, he crossed it, and lost a good deal of blood. After he reached some grazing land, he saw a tub full of water for sheep, broke the ice with a fist, and drank. He came to a house about six in the morning, eight hours after his boat capsized. When doctors examined him, they could not find a pulse, and his temperature was too low to register on a medical thermometer. [But he did survive.]

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 77

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 10:39:48 AM

paulmcuk

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Joined: 4/16/2011
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quote:

A bullet in the brain, is it questionble?

Well it's hard to argue with.

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 78

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 10:40:14 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
in most militaries, the rule of minimum force prevails

Hm, police are well known for using excessive force against people they arrest. One of my relatives testified against a pair of officers who arrested her drunk neighbor at night meters from him getting home - where he would have bothered no-one except for his alcoholic wife - using excessive force, the older cop urging the younger one on.

The rule of minimum force necessary to achieve one's actions stands with most law enforcement and military bodies, but of course there always exists the few who forget that fact, which shows a lack of discipline and perhaps unsuitability for the position.

Sadly even in our civilised society, pigs and thugs exist everywhere on both sides of the law. But, you know the old saying, it takes a thief to catch a thief, which kind of makes one wonder about those we entrust with our safety and security.

To me, police are a necessary evil, people whom I do believe should be thoroughly psychiatric tested on enlistment and then again at intervals to judge their suitability for the job, as we know some horrors they have to deal with might affect them in a detrimental way, thus making them a possible danger to those they are to serve and protect.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 79

RE: A bullet in the brain, is it questionble? - 5/10/2011 11:41:26 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
in most militaries, the rule of minimum force prevails

Hm, police are well known for using excessive force against people they arrest. One of my relatives testified against a pair of officers who arrested her drunk neighbor at night meters from him getting home - where he would have bothered no-one except for his alcoholic wife - using excessive force, the older cop urging the younger one on.

But he was being arrested and so was a naughty sort and fair game.
That's what everybody in this thread who has no problem with the fact that the evil OBL was shot without being brought to trial appears to think, after all. Your relative's neighbour should count himself lucky they didn't just shoot him through the head and claim that he was resisting arrest.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 80

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