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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 9:26:38 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I have my own theories so I dont know what that is.

Yet you think you're capable of discussing abstract physics with people who at least have a vague clue what they're talking about?
How cute.

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 3:37:27 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

But, not a shred of credible evidence exists to indicate that it does.


Nor is there a shred of credible evidence that it doesnt. Just sayin....


There's no concrete evidence that there are no vampires. So, I guess it's logical to believe in them. Just sayin...


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 3:39:07 PM   
tazzygirl


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Some people would argue there is.... now what? Can you discount them? Can you state, for a fact, that they dont exist?

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:03:34 PM   
lickenforyou


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[/quote]

I have only read your post and the OP, so I cannot comment on anyone else's.

How do you know it's a fantasy? The reality is, no one knows unequivocally what happens after we die. Stephen Hawking is entitled to his opinion, but it's just that. You say "we follow the evidence", but to even hint that we know enough to state absolutely there is no heaven, there is no God, there is no afterlife is a rather arrogant statement to make. Science may know a lot, but there is so much that is unknown. What if there is another plane (or planes) of existence or another dimension that has not been detected because the current scientific theories and knowledge are too limited to do so? Consider all of the scientific advancements of the last 100 years. Or consider one of the more current theories that challenges Einstein's theory of relativity - a theory long held as true. What if other evidence becomes known in the future to challenge current theories. We just cannot say with any degree of certainty what will happen.

To say we die and turn to dust is one possibility and one I had once considered. But now? I don't believe it to be so and my reasoning has nothing to do with fairy tales. ;)
[/quote]

Well, of course scientific theories will be challenged when evidence is presented that has been tested. No one is saying that what we now think is true won't be over turned, but there is no evidence being presented for life after death or anything supernatural that can be tested and proved right.

Sure, anything is possible, but why would you choose to believe something that has no basis in fact?

I would love to know the reasoning you used to believe that there is life after death.


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:13:31 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Some people would argue there is.... now what? Can you discount them? Can you state, for a fact, that they dont exist?


Do you understand that you are arguing that if it cannot be proven wrong then that is a logical reason to believe in it?

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:13:48 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Some people would argue there is.... now what? Can you discount them? Can you state, for a fact, that they dont exist?


No, I can't prove to a delusional person that their perceived reality is false. There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong. But, you're right, some people still choose to delude themselves in spite of evidence to the contrary. The real question is - what are they getting out of believing in such nonsense?


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:14:54 PM   
tazzygirl


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Ah, see? There you go again. Assuming things not in evidence. What proof do you have that these people are delusional?

And you wonder why you get so much flack?

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:32:03 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ah, see? There you go again. Assuming things not in evidence. What proof do you have that these people are delusional?

And you wonder why you get so much flack?


First of all, I don't wonder, nor do I care if I get flack.

Secondly this statement, which was in my original respinse to you, is why I say that they are delusional  "There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong."

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:38:18 PM   
tazzygirl


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Unless they are a threat to others or themselves... and I mean a physical threat... they can believe the moon is made of green cheese. I may laugh, but I would not stoop to calling them names or belittling them.

quote:

"There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong."


So, because those primitive reasons were proved wrong, the current reasons are invalidated?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 4:47:14 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou



I have only read your post and the OP, so I cannot comment on anyone else's.

How do you know it's a fantasy? The reality is, no one knows unequivocally what happens after we die. Stephen Hawking is entitled to his opinion, but it's just that. You say "we follow the evidence", but to even hint that we know enough to state absolutely there is no heaven, there is no God, there is no afterlife is a rather arrogant statement to make. Science may know a lot, but there is so much that is unknown. What if there is another plane (or planes) of existence or another dimension that has not been detected because the current scientific theories and knowledge are too limited to do so? Consider all of the scientific advancements of the last 100 years. Or consider one of the more current theories that challenges Einstein's theory of relativity - a theory long held as true. What if other evidence becomes known in the future to challenge current theories. We just cannot say with any degree of certainty what will happen.

To say we die and turn to dust is one possibility and one I had once considered. But now? I don't believe it to be so and my reasoning has nothing to do with fairy tales. ;)


Well, of course scientific theories will be challenged when evidence is presented that has been tested. No one is saying that what we now think is true won't be over turned, but there is no evidence being presented for life after death or anything supernatural that can be tested and proved right.

Sure, anything is possible, but why would you choose to believe something that has no basis in fact?

I would love to know the reasoning you used to believe that there is life after death.



Why does everything have to be thought, what happened to feel ? But perhaps that is the problem, many engage the brain only and seeks logic, where another part of us feels, but many are ignoring that.

To me, although brain function and therefore logic is paramount, that logic is tempered by the illogical feeling.

Therefore I understand although logic is perhaps the ideal, with us humans logic cannot exist completely because of feeling and I understand notions of what lies beyond the veil is more to do with feeling than logic

So, is science entirely correct bearing in mind it deals with theorum and test, either yes or no, positive or negative depending on the results, so as we know humans feel, where does that put science ?

But to illustrate the difference between logical thought and often illogical feeling, how often has one carried out a task successfuly based on gut feeling, if gut feeling succeeds, where logical science did not win through, what does that say about science ?

As I see it, science as we understand it, is still in it's embryonic form, sure it has achieved much, but it is by no means complete, because so far, it chooses to ignore the feeling part of us, as feeling exists, then it must be accounted for not ignored, for we are not logical machines.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 5/18/2011 4:48:51 PM >


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:09:13 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Unless they are a threat to others or themselves... and I mean a physical threat... they can believe the moon is made of green cheese. I may laugh, but I would not stoop to calling them names or belittling them.

quote:

"There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong."


So, because those primitive reasons were proved wrong, the current reasons are invalidated?


What are the current reasons for believing in vampires?


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:37:20 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Unless they are a threat to others or themselves... and I mean a physical threat... they can believe the moon is made of green cheese. I may laugh, but I would not stoop to calling them names or belittling them.

quote:

"There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong."


So, because those primitive reasons were proved wrong, the current reasons are invalidated?


What are the current reasons for believing in vampires?



Obviously because the best strategy FOR a vampire is to kill off all the other vampires, so everything thinks vampires are just a myth...

Can't trust them undead....

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:39:06 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Some people would argue there is.... now what? Can you discount them? Can you state, for a fact, that they dont exist?


Do you understand that you are arguing that if it cannot be proven wrong then that is a logical reason to believe in it?



Am I? I never mentioned logic anywhere. I dont believe its logical to believe in "God"/... nor do I believe its logical not to believe in "God". Without proof, anything is possible...

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:40:18 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Unless they are a threat to others or themselves... and I mean a physical threat... they can believe the moon is made of green cheese. I may laugh, but I would not stoop to calling them names or belittling them.

quote:

"There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong."


So, because those primitive reasons were proved wrong, the current reasons are invalidated?


What are the current reasons for believing in vampires?



I would not know, I dont believe in them. But, if you are asking me, you dont know either.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lickenforyou)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:44:52 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou



I have only read your post and the OP, so I cannot comment on anyone else's.

How do you know it's a fantasy? The reality is, no one knows unequivocally what happens after we die. Stephen Hawking is entitled to his opinion, but it's just that. You say "we follow the evidence", but to even hint that we know enough to state absolutely there is no heaven, there is no God, there is no afterlife is a rather arrogant statement to make. Science may know a lot, but there is so much that is unknown. What if there is another plane (or planes) of existence or another dimension that has not been detected because the current scientific theories and knowledge are too limited to do so? Consider all of the scientific advancements of the last 100 years. Or consider one of the more current theories that challenges Einstein's theory of relativity - a theory long held as true. What if other evidence becomes known in the future to challenge current theories. We just cannot say with any degree of certainty what will happen.

To say we die and turn to dust is one possibility and one I had once considered. But now? I don't believe it to be so and my reasoning has nothing to do with fairy tales. ;)


Well, of course scientific theories will be challenged when evidence is presented that has been tested. No one is saying that what we now think is true won't be over turned, but there is no evidence being presented for life after death or anything supernatural that can be tested and proved right.

Sure, anything is possible, but why would you choose to believe something that has no basis in fact?

I would love to know the reasoning you used to believe that there is life after death.



Why does everything have to be thought, what happened to feel ? But perhaps that is the problem, many engage the brain only and seeks logic, where another part of us feels, but many are ignoring that.

To me, although brain function and therefore logic is paramount, that logic is tempered by the illogical feeling.

Therefore I understand although logic is perhaps the ideal, with us humans logic cannot exist completely because of feeling and I understand notions of what lies beyond the veil is more to do with feeling than logic

So, is science entirely correct bearing in mind it deals with theorum and test, either yes or no, positive or negative depending on the results, so as we know humans feel, where does that put science ?

But to illustrate the difference between logical thought and often illogical feeling, how often has one carried out a task successfuly based on gut feeling, if gut feeling succeeds, where logical science did not win through, what does that say about science ?

As I see it, science as we understand it, is still in it's embryonic form, sure it has achieved much, but it is by no means complete, because so far, it chooses to ignore the feeling part of us, as feeling exists, then it must be accounted for not ignored, for we are not logical machines.



Feelings are real. Emotions serve specific purposes for our survival and well being. Well being is tied directly to our survival. There are reasonable answers for why you might feel something is true, even though it may not be. A gut decision is still based on information collected and evaluated by the brain .

There may indeed be unseen dimensions that science is not able to detect. But, why would you invest any time listening to someone who claims to KNOW that they exist and what goes on there? Or, spend any energy trying to understand something that may or may not be real? Unless, of course, you are pursuing it as a field of study. Which some have but, as of yet, have failed to provide any measurable proof.

I will state, again, for the record - Our current scientific understanding is not the end all be all. Science is a tool for us to use to try and understand our world.


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:56:08 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Unless they are a threat to others or themselves... and I mean a physical threat... they can believe the moon is made of green cheese. I may laugh, but I would not stoop to calling them names or belittling them.

quote:

"There are reasons that more primitive societies believed in vampires. But, those reasons were proved to be wrong."


So, because those primitive reasons were proved wrong, the current reasons are invalidated?


What are the current reasons for believing in vampires?



I would not know, I dont believe in them. But, if you are asking me, you dont know either.


You must believe something that is also illogical or you wouldn't be defending their self deluding belief as being legit. .


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 5:57:57 PM   
tazzygirl


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I can fight for someone else's belief without being delusional.

Sorta like all the people who fought for black rights.

That was just a belief to some at the time... and others told them they were wrong for all kinds of scientific reasons.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 6:13:39 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I can fight for someone else's belief without being delusional.

Sorta like all the people who fought for black rights.

That was just a belief to some at the time... and others told them they were wrong for all kinds of scientific reasons.


Ha ha ha, black people are REAL. And, it was science that proved that they are the same as white people. In fact, white people come from Africa where their ancestors were black. That is what science proved, not the other way around.

And, are you telling me that you DON'T believe in the supernatural?


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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 6:16:39 PM   
xssve


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Whether you believe in divine justice (heaven and hell) is irrelevant to me, as long as it cannot be proved one way or another - it is relevant to me if you think you are the instrument chosen to dispense it.

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RE: Stephen Hawking: There is no heaven; it's a fairy s... - 5/18/2011 6:59:30 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I can fight for someone else's belief without being delusional.

Sorta like all the people who fought for black rights.

That was just a belief to some at the time... and others told them they were wrong for all kinds of scientific reasons.


Ha ha ha, black people are REAL. And, it was science that proved that they are the same as white people. In fact, white people come from Africa where their ancestors were black. That is what science proved, not the other way around.

And, are you telling me that you DON'T believe in the supernatural?




Oh?

DNA DISCOVERER: BLACKS LESS INTELLIGENT THAN WHITES
Thursday, October 18, 2007


One of the world's most eminent scientists has created a racial firestorm in Britain.
James D. Watson, 79, co-discoverer of the DNA helix and winner of the 1962 Nobel Prize in medicine, told the Sunday Times of London that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — whereas all the testing says not really."
He recognized that the prevailing belief was that all human groups are equal, but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302836,00.html#ixzz1Ml7Bksbk

DNA Scientist Apologizes for Comments on Intelligence of Blacks

A famous scientist who won the Nobel Prize for Medicine has apologized for racially insensitive comments about the intelligence of blacks.
The Sunday Times of London printed an interview with Doctor James Watson in which he suggested blacks are not as intelligent as whites.
The prominent laboratory where he works in New York (The Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory) suspended Watson over the comments Thursday. And London's Science Museum canceled a sold-out lecture Friday by the doctor.
A statement from Watson's publicist says he is mortified over the quotes. Watson said he cannot understand how he could have said what he is quoted as saying, but he understands the public reaction to the comments.
The Sunday Times of London says it recorded the interview and stands by the quotes in its October 14 issue.
Scientists around the world are denouncing the comments and say there is no scientific evidence that blacks are intellectually inferior.
In a statement issued after his remarks were published, Watson also said there is no scientific proof that blacks are less intelligent than whites.


http://www.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-2007-10-19-voa4-66519287.html


In the United States, scientific racism justified Black African slavery to assuage moral opposition to the Atlantic slave trade. Alexander Thomas and Samuell Sillen described black men as uniquely fitted for bondage, because of their "primitive psychological organization".[51] In 1851, in antebellum Louisiana, the physician Samuel A. Cartwright (1793–1863), considered slave escape attempts as "drapetomania", a treatable mental illness, that "with proper medical advice, strictly followed, this troublesome practice that many Negroes have of running away can be almost entirely prevented". The term drapetomania (mania of the runaway slave) derives from the Greek δραπετης (drapetes, "a runaway [slave]") + μανια (mania, "madness, frenzy")[52] Cartwright also described dysaethesia aethiopica, called "rascality" by overseers. By 1840, the political challenges to American slavery increased; yet the 1840 census indicated that Northern, free blacks suffered mental illness at higher rates than did their Southern, enslaved counterparts. Moreover, Southern slavers concluded that escaping Negroes were only suffering from "mental disorders", and the census mental health data became a political weapon against abolitionists.[53]

.........

In the US, eugenicists such as Harry H. Laughlin, and Madison Grant sought to "scientifically" prove the physical and mental inadequacy of certain ethnic groups to justify compulsory sterilization and restrict immigration, per the Immigration Act of 1924; compulsory sterilization continued until the 1960s and later.

.........

Theodore Lothrop Stoddard (June 29, 1883 – May 1, 1950) was an American political scientist, historian, journalist, anthropologist, Islamic scholar, eugenicist, pacifist, and anti-immigration advocate who wrote a number of books which are cited by historians as prominent examples of early 20th-century scientific racism.

Stoddard's analysis divided world politics and situations in to "white," "yellow," "black," "Amerindian," and "brown" peoples and their interactions.Stoddard argued race and heredity were the guiding factors of history and civilization, and that the elimination or absorption of the "white" race by "colored" races would result in the destruction of Western civilization. Like Madison Grant (see The Passing of the Great Race), Stoddard divided the white race into three main divisions: Nordic, Alpine, and Mediterranean. He considered all three to be of good stock, and far above the quality of the colored races, but argued that the Nordic was the greatest of the three and needed to be preserved by way of eugenics. Unlike Grant, Stoddard was less concerned with which varieties of European people were superior to others (Nordic theory), but was more concerned with what he called "bi-racialism," seeing the world as being composed of simply "colored" and "white" races. In the years after the Great Migration and World War I, Grant's racial theory would fall out of favor in the U.S. in favor of a model closer to Stoddard's.

..........

In the late 19th century, the Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) United States Supreme Court decision that upheld the constitutional legality of racial segregation, under the doctrine of "separate but equal" was intellectually rooted in the scientific racism of the era, like-wise popular support for it.[68] Later, in the mid 20th century, the Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka (1954) decision rejected racialist arguments about the "need" for racial segregation — especially in public schools.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism#USA:_slavery_justified

Scientific racism. You do understand the term yes?

Scientific racism is the use of scientific techniques to sanction the belief in racial superiority or racism.[1

The pejorative label, "scientific racism", criticizes studies claiming to establish a connection between, for example, race and intelligence, and argues that this promotes the idea of "superior" and "inferior" human races.[5] Recent authors consider their work to be scientific and dispute use of the term "racism"; they may prefer terms such as "race realism" or "racialism".


Its this "scientific proof" that is used to try and racially suppress many people.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lickenforyou)
Profile   Post #: 100
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