RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (Full Version)

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JohnWarren -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 1:50:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArchangelMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

"I don't understand" is very different from "this is wrong."  Taking it out of the highly charged sexual realm, I have friends who are fanatic football fans, are deeply religious, are vegetarians, and this list could go on and on.

This doesn't stop me from associating with them in other bailiwicks and respecting their judgement in areas where I don't consider them to be a bit "touched."


I have to say that I certainly don't understand fanatic football fans. And I've cetainly run into my fair share of them since I've been living in Baton Rouge. LSU fans are some the most fanatic I've seen. But yeah, to each his own. I don't go to the games and as long as they're not hurting anyone, it's okay.



Masters from OSU during the Woody Hayes period, Doctorate from UTenn and taught at ECU and USM.   I'll put them up against LSU fans anytime [laugh]



JohnWarren -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 1:52:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
Or we can get all caught up in arguing amongst ourselves about the details of who does what and with which and to whom, and refuse to support or share with people who don't do things just our way.  In the meantime, more restrictive laws get passed, less safety information gets shared between the divided groups, and more bullshit and antagonism gets thrown around. 


On my website is a keynote address I gave a few years ago.  One of the better lines in it is something like "When people in a lifeboat start fighting, the only ones who benefit are the sharks."



theRose4U -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 1:58:50 PM)

quote:

"When people in a lifeboat start fighting, the only ones who benefit are the sharks."


I like that saying a lot, might I use that for a team building activity without naming the credited author?



truesub4u -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 2:40:25 PM)

Hi Erin... interresting post here.

Before I say anything more.... I have to say... that I admire the way you still RESPECT others choices... even when you do not understand it or them. It took awhile for me to be understood in the fact that it's not the person or persons involved I had no respect for... it was WHAT they were into that I didn't understand that I had no respect for. (Depending on what it was after I found out what it was all about as well) But's not the people I disrespect.

I know.. all though i'm not a virgin to females.... that I could never be topped.. or dominated by a female... i'm just to use to the male/female. I hold very high respect for the dynamics of a Domme/male slave realtionship. I think I hold higher respect for it because it's not of the so called norm of things as I was raised as seeing.. and being raised to believe. As much as I see it so natural for a Male to dominate a female.. I see a woman who can dominate stronger... and when a man submits to a female.. I find him to be very strong. And I do hold high reguards... respect for... the people involved in... but as far the actual dynamics.. I still struggle with... because it's nothing I can do.. nor have ever been taught to handle.

Between Misstress.... and MHOO... i've never had the honor of even speaking to a female Dom... most of my incounters have run the norm... oh you're a sub for a male... therefore not worthy of my time to even speak with you.... Misstress and MHOO have not treated me that way at all. I've talked in depth with Misstress about my thoughts, feelings and fears of being dominated by a female.... she didn't ridicule me.... or laugh.. (ok maybe a little if I asked a silly question... lol) but she talked with me.. answered... and informed.

Still confused.... still not sure... still not able to... but at leasts I know now... i'm not the only one... and it's not for everyone.. or mandatory to be like or accept by everyone.....



slavejali -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 3:20:05 PM)

I  express and ask about things I dont understand on these boards, I see it as an opportunity to interact with people with a different view than me, (just wanted to say that). I think its a given thing we dont understand everything (however frustrating). Expression of that non-understanding isnt an attack, for people to take it so would just mean lack of understanding on their part *grin*. From observation, I think when people get attacked  for putting forward a view on something, most of the time its beause it hasnt been expressed very well, perhaps they havent chosen their words correctly and it gets everyone defensive., or its simply because the person feeling offended by the comment has some trigger in themselves they have to sort out. You can see by this thread, because you thought about your initial post, there have been no defensive arguements or attacks in your direction because of the way you understand things.

Re the topic at hand:
I'm the same. I cannot relate to femme doms roles and male submissives roles. I can contemplate them within play. I can see how a male might like to be put in a position of being denied relief, a part of play for a male sub that seems common. I think that is partly due to their masculinity, masculinity at its rawest wants to conquer and control, to be put into a mindset where they feel out of control and forced to deny their desires to conquer, by a woman no less that they could easily just take anytime they really wanted if they so chose,  I can see how they could cultivate some pretty strong feelings. I'm guessing that is why fem Dommes find it so hard to actually get a male sub who actually wants the whole kit and kaboodle, the play part is intense, I can apreicate that, but the living of it, day to day....might go against the grain of very very many men and masculinity itself  would be very hard to suppressed on a long term basis....anyways...just thoughts...I think about ths subject every now and then...its a work in progress *grin*.



Najakcharmer -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 4:11:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
I'm guessing that is why fem Dommes find it so hard to actually get a male sub who actually wants the whole kit and kaboodle, the play part is intense, I can apreicate that, but the living of it, day to day....might go against the grain of very very many men and masculinity itself  would be very hard to suppressed on a long term basis....


That depends on how you define masculinity, and also on your personal tastes in a femdom D/s relationship.

My ideal of a D/s relationship is samurai to Lord, or knight to Lady, or alpha wolf to pack.  There is loyalty, honor, respect, obedience, duty and fealty.  The samurai or the knight gives his fealty and obedience and directs the strength of his fighting spirit to fulfill his duty to Her with honor.  He is no less a man for offering this fealty, and in some cultures he is considered more of a man because he gives his absolute devotion and service. 

In the animal kingdom, the wolves of a hunting pack willingly submit to a competent alpha female who has more seasons as a hunter or keener senses that let her lead them more often to a successful hunt and away from danger.   If a wolf became rabid and insane, no longer bound by the social structure of the pack, a male beta wolf might be able to physically defeat a female alpha.  But if he does not have the qualities that make a competent pack leader, if she has a good enough track record of leadership, the rest of the pack won't let him.  The alpha wolf feels a keen sense of responsibility to competently lead and care for the pack, and the pack knows this and accepts the alpha's dominance whether the alpha is male or female.  Female alphas who are more dominant in the pack than their mates are less common than male alphas in most of the pack hunting species, but they do exist.

There is a fairly popular femdom model that is based on denying a male some or all of his masculinity, punishing or negating or denying his sexuality, sissifying him, etc.  What I find interesting is that this is far more typically a male fantasy than a female one, though that's not to say that some women don't find it appealing also.  More commonly it will be the man who specifically requests that type of fantasy, and the woman will say that she feels more comfortable if her partner remains "more of a man" even if she is the dominant one in the relationship. 

I appreciate my sub for being male, for being a man.  He is a strong man, intelligent, capable and competent.  He is quite capable of taking charge of a situation and fixing things to his satisfaction.  His manhood and strength does not detract from his service to me; it enhances it, and in fact may well be at the core of it.  He is a knight and I am his Lady.  I am alpha to my pack, because that is my nature.  A deep part of me feels that the entire pack's survival depends on the strongest and most competent wolf establishing the best possible leadership, either by brute force, by sheer will and cunning, or by alliance and acclaim.  I experience this feeling as something like a biological imperative, and so I perform. 

I don't want to invalidate other people's feelings or their choice of D/s relationships.  Or more accurately their need for a certain type of D/s relationship; it probably isn't a choice any more than being heterosexual or homosexual is a choice.  This is just my life.  YMMV. 






KnightofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 4:20:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?



I don't understand those that want to understand that which is not their interest!  I really couldn't careless of understanding anothers interests or desires that are not shared by myself. 

It would like trying to understand what it is like for a woman to have an orgasm.  Frankly, I am very happy with my male orgasm and don't really need to understand what it is like for a woman.  However, This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate that others have different interests.  I might not understand what it feels like for a woman to have an orgasm.  But, I can appreciate that it is very enjoyable for them and as a male I can have a positive influence on that enjoyment. So, I show appreciation and acceptance by doing things that increase their enjoyment, learning from them what I can do as a male that would increase their enjoyment.  Of course the list goes on... of so many things that I don't understand and never will.  But, I can show appreciate and acceptance particularly to those people that are significant to me and my family.



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 4:38:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Jewel was an unanswered question, both were aware i never felt submissive to a female and that it was a very real possibility i would not accept her this way. But it was very easy and came quite naturally. So you never know.


I've had a very similar experience with a good friend who is a domme. We started out by playing with male dominants together (she bottoms as a masochist), or vanilla-ish men who wanted to try something new. She never dreamt of attempting to dominate me in these scenes. It never occured to me to want her to. Neither of us ever felt that there could be a D/s dynamic between us at all.

But over the last 2 years, we've had countless adventures together, and we've come to know each other's responses and desires extremely well. At some point she started to sense when being pushed into submission would enhance an experience for me, and she just naturally began to step in and seize control in those moments.

Every time this has happened it's worked well, and yet, it still comes as a bit of a surprise to both of us. We usually laugh about it afterward. Neither of us are bi, and if it were just the two of us, we'd spend the evening drinking tequila and talking up a storm instead.

Do I understand the draw of female domination? No, not really. Does she ever feel an urge to dominate me in non-sexual ways. Nope. Would I do a scene with just her and I? Probably not. But, it's instinctual for her to dominate when she feels that it will enhance someone's experience, and instinctual for me to respond submissively in a sexual situation.

It's odd, but it works.

Cin



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 4:57:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slipstreme
On a similar line, promiscuious or polyamorous Dominants who expect their submissive/slave to be sexually loyal to them only. I know D/s isn't supposed to be fair, but it is one restriction I don't think I could give a submissive of mine. If I'm off having fun with others, why not they? Call me lax, but I can't wrap my head around that notion. However I do understand the submissive/slave who finds that although they may be allowed to have multiple partners, they can't take advantage of that because they have devoted themselves to their Dom/Master. My friend is this way with her Master.




I understand what you mean, Slipstreme. I was in a 2 year relationship with a dominant who had other partners. He felt exactly as you did, that if he did, I should be free to, as well. The odd thing was, I didn't want to, although I'm quite comfortable in open relationships.

I felt no need to exercise that option, and only did it once, and that was because it seemed to bother him so much that I wasn't playing with others, that he practically ordered me to call an old playmate, and go play. LOL

In some ways, I didn't want him to be okay with me playing with others, but I did want him to be okay with his having other playmates. Something to do with wanting to feel like a treasured possession he wouldn't share with others, I guess.

Trust me, it was confusing to hold all these contradicting ideas and emotions, and yet I never really felt all that stressed or troubled by it, either. Does it make any more sense to me, in retrospect? No, not really, even though I'm usually guite a rational, logical person, and acutely self-aware.

Sometimes you just have to live with cognitive dissonance, and accept that humans are odd creatures, I guess.

Cin



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 5:03:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

Excellent analogy, John. 

I happen to love raw fish.  There's people who really don't "get" this culinary appetite.  They think that raw fish is bait, and eating bait is not something they can understand wanting to do.   As long as they don't try to tell me that I can't eat sushi, or picket my favorite sushi restaurants, they're entitled to their personal preferences.


Well dang, now I have a craving for sushi, Najakcharmer. ::glances over at her non-sushi dinner, and sighs loudly:: 
 
Anyway, people who don't like sushi are just dumb.

(Kidding folks, just kidding!!)
 
Cin



catize -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 5:09:16 PM)

 
Any belief system which holds to one 'natural order' does not take into consideration the people for whom it is not natural at all. That, in my opinion, is the only issue which needs to be understood.



Lashra -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 5:28:47 PM)

I cannot relate to maledom at all. I have never been submissive and I do not view any male as my superior. With that said I dont view any female as my superior either.  I don't know why some women feel they have to be submissive to a man but are more then willing to be dominant among other women. I just don't get it at all.
I'm a big believer in equality even though I'm a Dominant. I dominant in the bedroom but outside of it we are equal partners.

I have never been able to understand the Master/s relationships at all. I cannot understand what a person could get from being a slave. The slaves who do not work, are not allowed to do things they enjoy are the ones who boggle my mind the most. I don't see what they get out of it.
Its not that Im against it, I just do not understand it and probably never will.

~Lashra



ScooterTrash -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 5:45:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have very strong beliefs of how I perceive the natural order of things to be. I am certain that those beliefs are a cumulation of the environment in which I was raised and what I came to value over the course of my life. I am also sure that my perceptions have a great deal to do with how I view my submission.

Knowing you personally erin, this and this post, doesn't come as any surprise..lol. But I will give you credit, you try very hard to understand things such as the "Domme/sub" dynamic and although it doesn't ring true to you..you try like hell. I have to agree with many of the posts that do tend to put it on societal upbringing that makes us close minded, at least to the point of total acceptance of something we can't relate to.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?
Me...I can relate to the Female Domme over a male sub dynamic (go figure..lol), I initially just have to envision something to the effect of "Joan of Arc" to get my mind straight. But as for the submissiveness of an actual male..well you know the experiences I (we) have had don't necessarily prove out that phenomina, but I still grasp the concept. Still thinking it's a unicorn thing, but who knows what may be grazing on the lawn someday...lol.
 
I am however one of those who still have difficulty with the switch thing...at least in part, I "get it" if it's strictly a Top/bottom situation (even sort of tried that), but I don't understand it from a Dominant/submissive point of view. Seems they are mutually exclusive to me. Even at that, I try very hard not to hold that view against the people involved, but try to limit it to our own failure as a whole, to agree on specific definitions. As for real difficulties, many kinks I don't understand the attraction, sometime at all, but it seems those I have no issue with dealing with, as I don't have to do them...so I can hold my eyes and walk away...lol. Kinks I think are personal preferences and are in a different classification than dynamics.
 
In any case...you're OK, I'm OK, might be a good way to look at it and not always try to understand it...just gives you a headache...lmao.



Elizabeth7777 -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 6:01:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?



This is a great thread. As someone who came here to learn, I particularly appreciate it.

It's easiest for me to understand and relate to a D/s relationship between otherwise equals. You can flip the genders around and, within an individual relationship, it's perfectly understandable to me. (In my personal relationships, I end up on the dominant side thankyouverymuch, but I get why an otherwise strong woman decides to submit herself to a strong man.)

I don't understand or relate to relationships, any gender mix, in which both parties aren't jumping off from a point of strength. I see female dominance as harnessing a man's masculinity, not diminishing it....

BUT, that's hardly the only way the game is played. So, I sit back and appreciate that there's 31 flavors and thank god mine isn't vanilla.

Elizabeth
who also enjoys sushi



VvShadowspawnvV -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 6:23:17 PM)

The ones i don't "get" are the girls who AREN'T in this "lifestyle"... the ones who never wait on their men- the ones who insist that everything be "fair" and "equal"... the ones who would say i needed therapy for codependence... the same ones who get damp knickers over bodice-ripping "romance" novels about being kidnapped by pirates.  =P

becca, who made delicious sushi on Tuesday



Tikkiee -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 6:46:28 PM)

quote:

are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?

My best friend is a Gorean slave. I don't understand her lifestyle, but it in no way interfers with our friendship. When Chris and I are invited to their house, we do our best to follow the rules that her Master has set up there, even if we don't adhere or understand them. There have been times though that I have questioned her Master about something, simply because I was trying to understand a bit more. He has never felt offended by my questions, and encourages me to ask them ( as long as I respect the rules of his house, and those within ).
There have been times that I have very aggressively stated an opinion on something to them, in regards to their lifestyle; yet they know it comes from not understanding; as opposed to trying to enforce my own view of how things should be. 
Just because I may not understand the reasoning behind something, does not mean that I can not accept the fact that it obviously works for someone. Just my view on things though.



truesub4u -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 8:22:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I don't understand those that want to understand that which is not their interest!  I really couldn't careless of understanding anothers interests or desires that are not shared by myself.


Well gee KoM.... how is it to become an interest to one.... if they do not understand it to begin with. Up until I came to CM and started on the forums and getting bitched out by you and others about being more informed... open minded...  about poly... I felt the same way as you did on this subject. It was of no interest to me ... an I could care less either... and when I voiced my opinion about no given a damn about it and thought it was all bullshit... you was one of the first to jump up and tell me how wrong I was.

So when others question things that we do not understand... you could care less... but if we actually oppose you and a few others on here... we're just wrong...

And you say I need to get out more..... at least I do wonder about things outside my reality and want to learn more about how others see and or do things. Sad thing really... it was your girls... that gave more information about poly life... to gain a more respect for poly and those that live that life. And even became more open minded about. 





mistoferin -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things... (5/12/2006 8:23:41 PM)

Wow, so many great replies. Thank you all.

One thing that I would like to make clear though, because I think I may have been misunderstood. The point of my post was not to say that my perception of the "natural order of things" is in any way "THE" natural order of things. I would like for everyone to make their own decision on what is the natural order that works for them. It was also to gain an understanding of how others deal with differences in the community and within their own personal friendships, for too often I think people see "different" as somehow meaning "less". That said I would like to comment on a few things.....

quote:

The key isn't what you choose- the key is whether you give others the respect of their own choices.  
LuckyAlbatross 


This was worth repeating. Thank you.

quote:

I understand your views about men and masculinity, and the role a woman plays as submissive. Submissive as obeying the male, while caring for the home, child bearing, and nurturing the man, just because as he provides the economic stability and protection.
NINASHARP 


Ninasharp I found your post to be very interesting. I don't however think you entirely understand my views about men and masculinity, my reasons for relating best to a male Dominant/female submissive dynamic...or possibly my view on female submissives.

Let me clarify if I was unclear. Part of the problem for me with my understanding of female Domination is that I don't view myself or other submissive women as being "weaker". I know that sounds like somewhat of a contradiction but let me explain. I am a submissive woman. I am also a woman who is strong in mind and body, who has successfully managed to raise two wonderful boys into outstanding men, has had a successful and at times lucrative career life, has endured and overcome more than my fair share of hardship and come out on top of it. I have also managed caring for my home, nurturing my children and being true to my submissive nature..caring for my man. I can not view other women as being superior to me....we are equals and I can hold my own compared to any other.

As to your question for me....no it is not still "THE" natural order of things today in society....but it is the natural order that "I" best relate to.

quote:

I guess from my point of view I don't understand why the idea of a male slave is confusing to you? 
theRose4U 


I didn't really post so that anyone would understand my views or ideas...or to judge them to be right or wrong(not saying that you did that). I posted so that maybe folks would take a closer look at their own views and ideas and how they incorporate those ideas into their own lives and personal relationships. I only expect my views to be valid to me and me alone.



KnightofMists -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 9:11:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I don't understand those that want to understand that which is not their interest!  I really couldn't careless of understanding anothers interests or desires that are not shared by myself.


Well gee KoM.... how is it to become an interest to one.... if they do not understand it to begin with. Up until I came to CM and started on the forums and getting bitched out by you and others about being more informed... open minded...  about poly... I felt the same way as you did on this subject. It was of no interest to me ... an I could care less either... and when I voiced my opinion about no given a damn about it and thought it was all bullshit... you was one of the first to jump up and tell me how wrong I was.

So when others question things that we do not understand... you could care less... but if we actually oppose you and a few others on here... we're just wrong...

And you say I need to get out more..... at least I do wonder about things outside my reality and want to learn more about how others see and or do things. Sad thing really... it was your girls... that gave more information about poly life... to gain a more respect for poly and those that live that life. And even became more open minded about. 



Once again you not actually reading what I said and are responding passive aggressively.

Being open-minded doesn't equate to understanding another persons view point!  It's in part being accepting of others right to make choices and have a different view point than your own and not attacking them for it or making universal judgements..  But you have continuely not only expressed your opinion what is right for you, which is your right! ... but project that opinion as a universal judgement on others.  I recall the dog dish thread as a great example of that

quote:


But i'm not about to eat outta no damn dog dish... I got more respect for myself than that. And no matter how you try to explain or make excuses, when one makes you do that.. they have no respect for you as a person.


I may bnot understand why a person would enjoy eating out of a dog dish.  but, I do appreciate and accept that it is their choice and they are happy doing it.  I wll not make some outlandish judgement that such a Dominant that wants this shows their submissive no respect.  Just as your quote aboved from a previous thread clearly indicates.

If I am interested in something.  I will make the effort to understand.  If I am not interested, there is no effort to understand.  However, As I said that doesn't equate to a lack of appreciation.  Because an effort is there to appreciate anothers' choices and support their right to make that choice. Even if I don't enjoy the kink myself.




truesub4u -> RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your own view of the natural order of things.. (5/12/2006 9:23:12 PM)

I'm passive and aggressive.... the thread you brought up makes a great point.. just as mine did... annoyed with me again I see....I thought the same over the dog bowl thread as I did poly. But unlike you... I do not think I responded in a passive aggressive manner. And if I MISREAD what you stated in the quote I made sure that followed....because I could not hear how you was stating it.... well shit... excuse me. Shit happens.... perhaps... as you have stated to me.. perhaps you should choose your words more carefully so each and everyone of us can really know and understand what you are saying.. and not just a select few. 



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